I came across this is little story today, it's not breaking news. I suspect that a member of the housekeeping staff knows something about the bomb threat that required the sweep for weapons.
According to police in Secaucus, the bomb threat — which later was determined to be bogus — was called in to Hudson Regional Hospital on July 18. During a search, bomb detection dogs led investigators to an unlocked office closet containing dozens of firearms.
Among the weapons were 11 handguns and 27 rifles or shotguns, according to police. The closet also contained a .45 caliber semi-automatic rifle with a high-capacity magazine that was determined to be an assault rifle, and a 14-round high-capacity handgun magazine.
The arrested the guy the next day.
What the heck do you think this guy was doing? It sounds very ominous that he was keeping those weapons there.
No, it's not the same. There are already laws against exposing male genitalia to unsuspecting people on the books everywhere. Nobody is above the law, not even transwomen. I don't really believe that story with just that as evidence, do you? No one is telling non trans people to do anything except mind their own business.
It's about consent to use a bathroom stall? Do women's bathrooms have just rows of toilets or urinals with no privacy stalls? My wife tells me that even in high school in the early 70s playing sports, traveling from school to school, she never encountered a locker room that didn't have privacy shower options.
As for the assault, IMV, punishing the trans world because of a sexual predator that used a costume to access the victim would be like taking intrusive action against police because crimes are committed while people impersonate law enforcement. Or restricting doctors in someway because a conman broke laws while pretending to be a physician.
Would you agree that it's possible that you couldn't find any reporting outside of the right wing media because the stories are not credible and are only designed to fuel culture war fever among their consumers. That's good business on the right side of the spectrum but not on the left.
On the left you find breathless speculation about an indictment or another stupid or reckless thing said by MTG or Boebert, or Jordan, etc. I don't peruse too far on either side of the spectrum although people do share some interesting stuff on AN sometimes... it all gets stupid and illogical on the fringes.
No, I don't have to refrain from blaming Trump. The man is not above criticism or the law and there's lots to talk about. It's going to be hard for you to participate in these threads if you can't handle that. Do you want to discuss specifically why you don't think that DeVos contributed to the increase in bathroom laws? Her department immediately stopped hearing and supporting any complaints of discrimination against trans students. Do you think that deterred harassment of trans students? Trans people make up maybe one half of one percent of the population. They aren't looking to hurt anyone. Why the animus?
There's just too much history making, verifiable and important news that is also interesting on a variety of levels, why bother with BS?
How would you like me to refer to your media choices or do I get to choose my own words?
Okay. I understand why you think this controversy is happening, Trump and media. Got it.
I was referring to discussing the topic, not why there is one. As in your opinion.
I tend to believe that the lack of left media coverage is due to bias by omission. It goes against the left idea that shared bathrooms/ locker rooms do not pose a threat to biological sex users.
I'm not sure where you get another delusional thought about me. I ve never said anything about MTG or the other person.
How do you know this person is "dressing in a costume" to get into the girls bathroom? The youth had come out as Trans. Perhaps it's your media consumption that has led to your ignorance on this case?.
How do you tell who's "dressing in a costume" ? From from an actual trans person wearingva dress or makeup? You did not answer why there has traditionally sex segregated washrooms and changing areas?
Yes. My experience is mostly the same as your wife's with private stalls. However what happens when someone chooses to not use these private stalls and expose their genitals? Like the swimmer had to endure with Lia Thomas? Another example you did not address.
Yes, indecency laws are in place and for many years. Which means if a man exposes themselves to a little girl in a locker room, they will be charged. So what's the differing factor? Put lip stick on and wear your hair in pigtails? Then walk around freely with your genitals hanging out?
A little girl should never be exposed to a member or testicles regardless of the gender the person identifies with. Or whether the member belongs to a "man" or a "woman". Apparently women have member' and "men" have lady partss.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
Roitrn said:
Okay. I understand why you think this controversy is happening, Trump and media. Got it.
I was referring to discussing the topic, not why there is one. As in your opinion.
I tend to believe that the lack of left media coverage is due to bias by omission. It goes against the left idea that shared bathrooms/ locker rooms do not pose a threat to biological sex users.
I'm not sure where you get another delusional thought about me. I ve never said anything about MTG or the other person.
How do you know this person is "dressing in a costume" to get into the girls bathroom? The youth had come out as Trans. Perhaps it's your media consumption that has led to your ignorance on this case?.
How do you tell who's "dressing in a costume" ? From from an actual trans person wearingva dress or makeup? You did not answer why there has traditionally sex segregated washrooms and changing areas?
Yes. My experience is mostly the same as your wife's with private stalls. However what happens when someone chooses to not use these private stalls and expose their genitals? Like the swimmer had to endure with Leena Thomas? Another example you did not address.
Yes, indecency laws are in place and for many years. Which means if a man exposes themselves to a little girl in a locker room, they will be charged. So what's the differing factor? Put lip stick on and wear your hair in pigtails? Then walk around freely with your genitals hanging out?
A little girl should never be exposed to a member or testicles regardless of the gender the person identifies with. Or whether the member belongs to a "man" or a "woman". Apparently women have member' and "men" have lady partss.
Does it make you uncomfortable to mention or discuss the connections to Trump policy? Should we avoid mention of Trump policy because that implies blame and you don't like that? Do you think that political policy and messaging doesn't affect the behavior and lives of people across the country?
Why can't the discussion of the topic include possible causes or influences? How do you solve problems if you don't understand their root causes? Are you trying to control the discussion?
You can believe what you want about why the only sources you could find were not very reliable, regardless of which way they lean politically. I simply asked if you could agree that it was a possibility that the reason you couldn't find left leaning sources was because left wing reporting isn't really interested in those not very credible stories and unsubstantiated claims. Apparently you couldn't agree.
You are confused again. I didn't say that you said anything about MTG etc al. Slow down and read for comprehension not response.
Why do I have to answer a dumb question about historic bathroom design? Are we asking random questions about bathrooms? Why are there fewer public urinals and or toilets for women than for men? Why are men's locker rooms in colleges nice than women's? Are you trying to derail the conversation, because those things are unrelated to why conservatives are pretending that it's scary and dangerous for a transwoman to use a woman's bathroom or shower. You haven't actually provided any real proof or evidence that trans women are scary or dangerous in those settings. You've only proved that some people are horrified by the thought of being in a locker room with them. In the case that was presented, the criminal was wearing a costume and was not a trans woman. Sometimes it's difficult to tell who is wearing a costume and who is not. Do we limit other people that might be mimicked or copied or impersonated by a criminal or conman? If not then why would we limit trans people because of the crimes of others?
There was no actual believable claim, in my view, in the case you cited. If there was indecent exposure she should have reported it to the police. If she simply looked because she was curious then she has no right to be offended. How can you be certain which way that went? It's one anecdotal case that describes no actual harm or malicious intent. Can you think of a reason why a transwoman would want to display her member in a locker room?
Does your hyperbole about lipstick with memberes hanging out imply that you think that it wouldn't still be indecent exposure? Please explain why that exposure wouldn't violate current laws... even with pigtails and lipstick. Do you think that trans people are given special treatment by police?
And yet little girls are sexually assaulted by heterosexual men all the time, sometimes in bathrooms, and these laws don't do anything to prevent or address that data supported reality. They address the non existent misconduct of transwomen in bathrooms and locker rooms. These laws assign all manner of unsavory behavior to trans women that simply isn't evidenced in fact.
Are you aware that there is a spectrum of "normal" as related to external genitalia? When is someone with a member maybe not a man? Did you learn about hermaphrodites in nursing school? It's not really terribly uncommon in the natural world in either plants or animals.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
Roitrn said:
Do you have to go beyond "imagining a crime" for there to be a law against it?
Did there have to be a murder before someone imagined it should be illegal?
This doesn't make any sense.
You can't just decide that trans women are guilty of harassing people in bathrooms or rape or assault simply because people are afraid that it MIGHT happen. You certainly shouldn't then be able to restrict their freedom to use a safe bathroom because you've imagined that they are dangerous. There should be evidence of a problem that needs correction. In the absence of that problem you are just legislating to appease feelings... and they are feelings that aren't very tolerant, accepting or kind. IMV
What have the trans people done to justify writing laws to force transwomen out of safe bathrooms?
Does it make you uncomfortable to mention or discuss the connections to Trump policy? Should we avoid mention of Trump policy because that implies blame and you don't like that? Do you think that political policy and messaging doesn't affect the behavior and lives of people across the country?
Why can't the discussion of the topic include possible causes or influences? How do you solve problems if you don't understand their root causes? Are you trying to control the discussion?
You can believe what you want about why the only sources you could find were not very reliable, regardless of which way they lean politically. I simply asked if you could agree that it was a possibility that the reason you couldn't find left leaning sources was because left wing reporting isn't really interested in those not very credible stories and unsubstantiated claims. Apparently you couldn't agree.
You are confused again. I didn't say that you said anything about MTG etc al. Slow down and read for comprehension not response.
Why do I have to answer a dumb question about historic bathroom design? Are we asking random questions about bathrooms? Why are there fewer public urinals and or toilets for women than for men? Why are men's locker rooms in colleges nice than women's? Are you trying to derail the conversation, because those things are unrelated to why conservatives are pretending that it's scary and dangerous for a transwoman to use a woman's bathroom or shower. You haven't actually provided any real proof or evidence that trans women are scary or dangerous in those settings. You've only proved that some people are horrified by the thought of being in a locker room with them. In the case that was presented, the criminal was wearing a costume and was not a trans woman. Sometimes it's difficult to tell who is wearing a costume and who is not. Do we limit other people that might be mimicked or copied or impersonated by a criminal or conman? If not then why would we limit trans people because of the crimes of others?
There was no actual believable claim, in my view, in the case you cited. If there was indecent exposure she should have reported it to the police. If she simply looked because she was curious then she has no right to be offended. How can you be certain which way that went? It's one anecdotal case that describes no actual harm or malicious intent. Can you think of a reason why a transwoman would want to display her member in a locker room?
Does your hyperbole about lipstick with memberes hanging out imply that you think that it wouldn't still be indecent exposure? Please explain why that exposure wouldn't violate current laws... even with pigtails and lipstick. Do you think that trans people are given special treatment by police?
And yet little girls are sexually assaulted by heterosexual men all the time, sometimes in bathrooms, and these laws don't do anything to prevent or address that data supported reality. They address the non existent misconduct of transwomen in bathrooms and locker rooms. These laws assign all manner of unsavory behavior to trans women that simply isn't evidenced in fact.
Are you aware that there is a spectrum of "normal" as related to external genitalia? When is someone with a member maybe not a man? Did you learn about hermaphrodites in nursing school? It's not really terribly uncommon in the natural world in either plants or animals.
No. Your opinion on Trump doesn't bother me at all. It is clear that in your view, the transgender issue is caused by him/ policy and right wing news. Mostly FOX I presume.
For whatever caused the issue, I was wondering if you wanted to discuss the issue and/ or speculate what can be done about it? More than why it is an issue. We already know it is for whatever reason.
I'm sorry you feel bathroom design is dumb. The relation is, there has been segregated bathrooms and locker rooms for the better part of history. Why do you think that is? And why do you think this should change? The subject of bathrooms are related to bathrooms. We are not trying to change the amount of bathrooms or their cleanliness.
I wasn' t my intent to provide evidence. It is my point to discuss it. That sex offender was identifying as a female. Regardless of what you call a costume. Do you think that biological men who dress in feminine clothing are wearing a costume? Is a trans woman only a women until they have a specific time they have identified as such?
The swimmer who competed with Lia Thomas said that several other members of the team did make a complaint but were castigated as transphobic and offered psychological therapy. They feared being kicked off the team if they made anymore grievances.
I've provided ideas of why some people would be offended and traumatized by seeing male genitalia, when not expected or consent to. Not fear of the transgender person. This doesn't have to do with an opinion on transpeople. The fundamental fact is that there are some unavoidable circumstances. That some trans women still have male genitalia
No I do not know why a transperson would want to expose their genitalia in the locker room. I eoukd image a genuine transgender woman woul most likely want more privacy as their sex organs do not match their identity.
You need to get past thinking I have a moral objection to transpeople. Yes, heterosexual men rape children and women. Having segregated bathroom/locker rooms provides protection from this happening. As men are not permitted in places that are intimate
I did learn about hermaphrodite in school. I also learned that hermaphrodites are born hermaphrodite, they don't choose or identify as such. They were born that way.
You can't just decide that trans women are guilty of harassing people in bathrooms or rape or assault simply because people are afraid that it MIGHT happen. You certainly shouldn't then be able to restrict their freedom to use a safe bathroom because you've imagined that they are dangerous. There should be evidence of a problem that needs correction. In the absence of that problem you are just legislating to appease feelings... and they are feelings that aren't very tolerant, accepting or kind. IMV
What have the trans people done to justify writing laws to force transwomen out of safe bathrooms?
Who's feeling are being coddled? The feeling of a very small percent of the population that disregards others that identify as the sex they were born with? Some people do not want to see male genitals in their intimate place.
There are no studies or stats to assess how many times women and girls have been subjected to seeing male genitalia in there intimate spaces. Are their any stats even asking women how they feel? That woukd be considered transphobic to even ask. I'd imagine what occurs most likely is the women and girls just leave and perhaps avoid recreation or find somewhere else to go. The girls on the swim team that reported their discomfort didn't have their concerns addressed and we defamed as transphobe bigots. I most certainly wouldn't say something and be called an intolerant transphobe? Cell phones in hand recording every minute? No thank you. This is why you may not find the evidence you demand.
What does that case have to do with laws forcing transwomen out of safe bathrooms? It's about a rapist, right?
Let's stop with the misleading hyperbole. It's not "forcing trans people out of bathrooms". It the concern is the possible implications on girls and women in their intimate spaces.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
Roitrn said:
No. Your opinion on Trump doesn't bother me at all. It is clear that in your view, the transgender issue is caused by him/ policy and right wing news. Mostly FOX I presume.
For whatever caused the issue, I was wondering if you wanted to discuss the issue and/ or speculate what can be done about it? More than why it is an issue. We already know it is for whatever reason.
I'm sorry you feel bathroom design is dumb. The relation is, there has been segregated bathrooms and locker rooms for the better part of history. Why do you think that is? And why do you think this should change? The subject of bathrooms are related to bathrooms. We are not trying to change the amount of bathrooms or their cleanliness.
I wasn' t my intent to provide evidence. It is my point to discuss it. That sex offender was identifying as a female. Regardless of what you call a costume. Do you think that biological men who dress in feminine clothing are wearing a costume? Is a trans woman only a women until they have a specific time they have identified as such?
The swimmer who competed with Lia Thomas said that several other members of the team did make a complaint but were castigated as transphobic and offered psychological therapy. They feared being kicked off the team if they made anymore grievances.
I've provided ideas of why some people would be offended and traumatized by seeing male genitalia, when not expected or consent to. Not fear of the transgender person. This doesn't have to do with an opinion on transpeople. The fundamental fact is that there are some unavoidable circumstances. That some trans women still have male genitalia
No I do not know why a transperson would want to expose their genitalia in the locker room. I eoukd image a genuine transgender woman woul most likely want more privacy as their sex organs do not match their identity.
You need to get past thinking I have a moral objection to transpeople. Yes, heterosexual men rape children and women. Having segregated bathroom/locker rooms provides protection from this happening. As men are not permitted in places that are intimate
I did learn about hermaphrodite in school. I also learned that hermaphrodites are born hermaphrodite, they don't choose or identify as such. They were born that way.
What is "the transgender issue"? In your view. I don't think there's a issue with trans Americans. I think there's a problem with people who are afraid of or uncomfortable with the idea of transgender people or some other religious or personal agenda or belief that causes them to want to believe things about transgender citizens that aren't actually evidence in fact.
I think that trans folk are vulnerable and they are often bullied and abused, particularly transwomen when they are forced into unsafe environments. You know, like men's bathrooms.
So what if they have male genitalia? They are discrete and you shouldn't be examining them. Providing proof of people's discomfort is not providing evidence that trans folk cause any trouble in bathrooms or locker rooms.
You are correct. Transwomen are typically discrete which makes the concerns about intentional exposure almost silly in a logical thought process.
Who said you have a moral objection to transpeople? Are you projecting something into me in this discussion. What is that comment based upon? Clearly it's not based upon my words.
You're kidding with that comment "Having segregated bathroom/locker rooms provides protection from this happening. As men are not permitted in places that are intimate", right? Because kids are raped by heterosexual men in segregated bathrooms, and all manner of places... so are women. Yet we should tolerate intrusive laws against transfolk when there's no societal problem with trans folk raping women or children. Transfolk are victims much more often than they are perpetrators.
You don't think that transfolk are born that way? Do you think that they just decide to be transgender one day? Do you think gays just decide that too or just trans?
What is "the transgender issue"? In your view. I don't think there's a issue with trans Americans. I think there's a problem with people who are afraid of or uncomfortable with the idea of transgender people or some other religious or personal agenda or belief that causes them to want to believe things about transgender citizens that aren't actually evidence in fact.
I think that trans folk are vulnerable and they are often bullied and abused, particularly transwomen when they are forced into unsafe environments. You know, like men's bathrooms.
So what if they have male genitalia? They are discrete and you shouldn't be examining them. Providing proof of people's discomfort is not providing evidence that trans folk cause any trouble in bathrooms or locker rooms.
You are correct. Transwomen are typically discrete which makes the concerns about intentional exposure almost silly in a logical thought process.
Who said you have a moral objection to transpeople? Are you projecting something into me in this discussion. What is that comment based upon? Clearly it's not based upon my words.
You're kidding with that comment "Having segregated bathroom/locker rooms provides protection from this happening. As men are not permitted in places that are intimate", right? Because kids are raped by heterosexual men in segregated bathrooms, and all manner of places... so are women. Yet we should tolerate intrusive laws against transfolk when there's no societal problem with trans folk raping women or children. Transfolk are victims much more often than they are perpetrators.
You don't think that transfolk are born that way? Do you think that they just decide to be transgender one day? Do you think gays just decide that too or just trans?
Are you saying women purposely look at transgender women to get a glimpse of their member?
Don't be purposely obtuse. I'm not referring to transpeople themselves as an issue. The issue is with traditionally intimate spaces for only women. How do we help everyone feel comfortable?
Having a bathroom exclusively for women prevents a rape victim from more trauma from seeing a person who still may look like a man, and have the sex organs they were violated with. How many more rapes in bathrooms would there be if men hetero or otherwise were able to freely walk into bathrooms and locker rooms? There is a reason for sex segregated intimate spaces. You still have not answered why this is?
You also have no evidence that there isn't a risk or any studies on how women feel and/or how many have been exposed to genitalia? ( I didn't say that they were more likely to be rapist). I'm not talking about rape, I'm talking about seeing intact trans-women in women's intimate spaces.
I believe that there are primary sex characteristics at birth. Male, female and hermaphrodite/ inter-sexed They were born that way. I think transgenderism is like most things, is a balance between nature vs nature. And anyone who identified with whatever gender is fully entitled to and be treated with respect. However girls and women should feel safe and respected as well. So what is the solution?
Do you take issue with gender neutral bathrooms? I think the solution is gender neutral washrooms and locker rooms.
toomuchbaloney
16,242 Posts
You'll have to provide a citation, I'm not chasing your anecdotal attempt to justify these laws for you.