We can't eat

[vintagegal]

Nurses: we can't eat nor can we pay our rent. Why is it that inflation has caused such an uproar in our economy that a basic apartment 5 years ago costed 630 dollars and now it's upwards of 1200, 2200 in some areas. That, coupled with keeping the lights on, paying for a car, gas, other incidentals and a lagging wage has me absolutely concerned for the future of nursing. It's time to wake up! We are not being compensated fairly at all. Just think of all those ICD and CPT codes that are making these companies booku bucks while we struggle to survive. I don't want to drive a Bentley or live in a mansion. I just want to be able to afford basic necessities and have a good quality of life. Nurses wages and NP wages have stalled significantly in the last 5 years while everything else has gone sky high. Corporate salary increases of 2%?? What a joke, inflation is the highest it's ever been. And to resign your lease to find it's pretty much doubled is a catastrophe. I can't afford to buy a home, I can't afford much of anything. Meanwhile there is some airhead on social media showing off a new lip gloss and she gets paid to do it. I've worked through Covid, I've worked through every challenge in my life, and now I'm just wondering what's next.

[FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP]

subee said:

There is nothing in this statement that means more.than it says.  Despite all that California has done, we still have a shortage.  That's alI am saying here.  We are going to have to come up with other idea because unions and ratios aren't enough.

CA also pays extremely well.  Unfortunately, it takes time to educate and train more nurses and there is also a nursing instructor shortage.  However, I think CA is doing more than pretty much any other state.

Another issue is that while there is a nursing shortage, some hospitals are just not hiring more nurses, although I don't think that is the issue here in CA.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

FullGlass said:

CA also pays extremely well.  Unfortunately, it takes time to educate and train more nurses and there is also a nursing instructor shortage.  However, I think CA is doing more than pretty much any other state.

Another issue is that while there is a nursing shortage, some hospitals are just not hiring more nurses, although I don't think that is the issue here in CA.

There's been an instructor shortage for many decades now and we still haven't solved it.  What is California doing that other states could learn from?  How are they paying for it?  I considered a post master's certificate in teaching over 20 years ago the new salary would hardly pay for the commute.  We need to do more positive PR to counteract the awful press we are getting now in addition to loads of money.  Hospitals need to wake up to the fact that if they don't open up clinical sites for students, they won't have employees for the future.  Good luck, California.

[FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP]

subee said:

See below

I'm sorry you are so bitter.  I've thought about moving out of California, but when I take a close look at other states, there are only a couple that I would consider moving to.

What is California doing that other states could learn from? 

1.  Strict nurse to patient ratios

2.  Union for RNs

3.  HIghest pay in the country for RNs and NPs

There's been an instructor shortage for many decades now and we still haven't solved it. 

True.  The problem is that nursing instructors make less money than they would being nurses.  The answer?  I don't know, but perhaps subsidizing instructor pay to encourage more RNs to become nurses.  Some states offer clinical preceptors hefty tax credits.  Nursing instructors could be given benefits like student loan forgiveness/repayment.  Perhaps special tax incentives, like a tax credit when they file

I don't know if there is a lack of hospital sites for clinical rotations.  There appear to be schools that build relationships with hospitals for clinical rotations and have no trouble placing their students.  The state and federal government could provide them with incentives, like tax incentives.  Also, the government and nursing organizations could work together and simply not accredidate schools unless they provide clinical placements for students.

Since you are retired, perhaps you would like to become a leader in helping to address these issues.  Complaining here is not going to help, but action will.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

FullGlass said:

I'm sorry you are so bitter.  I've thought about moving out of California, but when I take a close look at other states, there are only a couple that I would consider moving to.

What is California doing that other states could learn from? 

1.  Strict nurse to patient ratios

2.  Union for RNs

3.  HIghest pay in the country for RNs and NPs

There's been an instructor shortage for many decades now and we still haven't solved it. 

True.  The problem is that nursing instructors make less money than they would being nurses.  The answer?  I don't know, but perhaps subsidizing instructor pay to encourage more RNs to become nurses.  Some states offer clinical preceptors hefty tax credits.  Nursing instructors could be given benefits like student loan forgiveness/repayment.  Perhaps special tax incentives, like a tax credit when they file

I don't know if there is a lack of hospital sites for clinical rotations.  There appear to be schools that build relationships with hospitals for clinical rotations and have no trouble placing their students.  The state and federal government could provide them with incentives, like tax incentives.  Also, the government and nursing organizations could work together and simply not accredidate schools unless they provide clinical placements for students.

Since you are retired, perhaps you would like to become a leader in helping to address these issues.  Complaining here is not going to help, but action will.

I'm not complaining.   I'm laying out the facts.  The nurses in my city are unionized and we still can't hire enough.  There are numerous citations in the nursing literature about the lack of clinical sites for students to the point that, if we even had enough instructors, clinical rotations would still be limited.  I don't believe that California is doing more than any other state except for the patient ratio laws which are now being considered in other states.  I'm not aware that hospitals are paying taxes since they are usually non-profits so not sure that tax incentives would appeal to them.  These large schemes to incentivize nursing education and better working conditions are things the ANA should be taking on but they aren't, despite having an office in D.C.  They have actually opposed nurse-patient ratios.  I just don't see that California is doing anything more creative than other states.  Until we pay educators more money, we will continue with the shortage of instructors we've experienced for at least the last 40 years at least.  We have plenty of nurses who aren't working because of a lack of attractive jobs.  We can be allocating.health care dollars more efficiently when we get rid of all the middlemen that have insinuated themselves in siphoning off money for themselves leaving less dollars for the people who do the labor.

[FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP]

subee said:

I'm not complaining.   I'm laying out the facts.  The nurses in my city are unionized and we still can't hire enough.  There are numerous citations in the nursing literature about the lack of clinical sites for students to the point that, if we even had enough instructors, clinical rotations would still be limited.  I don't believe that California is doing more than any other state except for the patient ratio laws which are now being considered in other states.  I'm not aware that hospitals are paying taxes since they are usually non-profits so not sure that tax incentives would appeal to them.  These large schemes to incentivize nursing education and better working conditions are things the ANA should be taking on but they aren't, despite having an office in D.C.  They have actually opposed nurse-patient ratios.  I just don't see that California is doing anything more creative than other states.  Until we pay educators more money, we will continue with the shortage of instructors we've experienced for at least the last 40 years at least.  We have plenty of nurses who aren't working because of a lack of attractive jobs.  We can be allocating.health care dollars more efficiently when we get rid of all the middlemen that have insinuated themselves in siphoning off money for themselves leaving less dollars for the people who do the labor.

Frankly, you are very negative.  The facts are that California IS doing more than other states.  You have no evidence to refute what I said to support my position.  If you think another state is doing more, then please share.

"“No other state comes close in pay, a reflection of the strong unionization of nurses, competition from Kaiser Permanente, as well as California's high living costs,” Don noted, citing federal labor data showing that the top 10 metro areas nationwide for nurse pay are all in California.

One other key factor that makes the state an ideal place for nurses: mandated minimum staffing levels. California is the only state that has enshrined those staffing standards into law ... the state is a model for recruiting nurses ... "

https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2023-09-21/how-california-is-getting-more-nurses-to-move-here-amid-a-population-exodus-essential-california

https://www.workingnurse.com/articles/why-nurses-are-coming-to-california/

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/nursing/I-don't-know-if-I-could-work-anywhere-else-why-nurses-flock-to-california.html#:~:text=California has a significant edge,pandemic%2C according to a Sept.

Is there more that should be done?  Yes.  However, CA leads the nation.

 

[Peachpit]

Caytie King said:

Is it time for RNs to unionize? Thoughts? It has been said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I don't know much about unions, TBH. Why not quit complaining and griping about low pay and high patient ratios and try something new?

Some nurses, like in Calif, The VA and Kaiser as well as northern states have unions. They do seem to have better wages and benefits than non union nurses.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

Peachpit said:

Some nurses, like in Calif, The VA and Kaiser as well as northern states have unions. They do seem to have better wages and benefits than non union nurses.

I find it amazing that all nurses aren't unionized.  As a CRNA I worked in a variety of hospitals (we get moved around every day) and as a non-employee observer of both union and non-union facilities, I would take a union one every time.  This was in New York where there are plenty of union hospitals.

[brandy1017, ASN, RN]

subee said:

I find it amazing that all nurses aren't unionized.  As a CRNA I worked in a variety of hospitals (we get moved around every day) and as a non-employee observer of both union and non-union facilities, I would take a union one every time.  This was in New York where there are plenty of union hospitals.

Not really surprising, as nurses usually work for private hospitals unlike teachers that more often work for city ie government run schools.  Many nurses as a female dominated career have been indoctrinated since childhood to be caretakers, and many have come from an abusive childhood so already used to being treated poorly, sad to say to will not fight back as readily as others without a trauma background. 

In the past, hospitals had more of a Christian and or family atmosphere that helped to keep nurses quiet, compliant and subservient.  Now that facade is gone as the billion dollar mega corporations that have taken over are ruthless and will fire those who try to start a union.  Sure it's illegal, but that won't stop them.  They skirt the law all the time.  That's what the lawyers are for, maybe they get a fine, a slap on the wrist, have to pay a settlement, it's nothing to them, just the cost of doing business.

What's amazing is that nurses' eyes were finally opened during covid how little their lives mattered to their employer.  Some had their jobs threatened and some were even fired when they simply asked for TB masks, respirators!   Some were forced to use improvised garbage bags as gowns to protect themselves.  They watched colleagues die because of this!  The total disrespect and lack of basic human decency is what finally has propelled the mass exodus of bedside nurses and also union activity for those that remain!

What's amazing is that management still doesn't get it!  They still don't see why everybody is quitting and stupidly blame covid when they are the reason for the staffing crisis!  They should be forced to take an assignment at least weekly and work alongside the staff nurses, then finally maybe change would come when they had to work in the same unsafe, untenable conditions they put their staff in on a daily basis!

 

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

brandy1017 said:

Not really surprising, as nurses usually work for private hospitals unlike teachers that more often work for city ie government run schools.  Many nurses as a female dominated career have been indoctrinated since childhood to be caretakers, and many have come from an abusive childhood so already used to being treated poorly, sad to say to will not fight back as readily as others without a trauma background. 

In the past, hospitals had more of a Christian and or family atmosphere that helped to keep nurses quiet, compliant and subservient.  Now that facade is gone as the billion dollar mega corporations that have taken over are ruthless and will fire those who try to start a union.  Sure it's illegal, but that won't stop them.  They skirt the law all the time.  That's what the lawyers are for, maybe they get a fine, a slap on the wrist, have to pay a settlement, it's nothing to them, just the cost of doing business.

What's amazing is that nurses' eyes were finally opened during covid how little their lives mattered to their employer.  Some had their jobs threatened and some were even fired when they simply asked for TB masks, respirators!   Some were forced to use improvised garbage bags as gowns to protect themselves.  They watched colleagues die because of this!  The total disrespect and lack of basic human decency is what finally has propelled the mass exodus of bedside nurses and also union activity for those that remain!

What's amazing is that management still doesn't get it!  They still don't see why everybody is quitting and stupidly blame covid when they are the reason for the staffing crisis!  They should be forced to take an assignment at least weekly and work alongside the staff nurses, then finally maybe change would come when they had to work in the same unsafe, untenable conditions they put their staff in on a daily basis!

 

Are you mansplaining or womansplaing?  I spent 42 years in nursing and another 10 retired but keeping up with the literature.  Since we are coming up to 2024 and not a few years out of the Crimean War, we've had plenty of time to evolve into the thinking of another century.  I remember claims of woman power since the 1970's:)  

[brandy1017, ASN, RN]

subee said:

Are you mansplaining or womansplaing?  I spent 42 years in nursing and another 10 retired but keeping up with the literature.  Since we are coming up to 2024 and not a few years out of the Crimean War, we've had plenty of time to evolve into the thinking of another century.  I remember claims of woman power since the 1970's:)  

You seem offended by my comments.  Has your experience been different not just for you but for the average nurse?  Yes you became a CRNA, but most nurses are staff nurses and most hospitals do everything they can to control us down to punching a time clock and don't you dare be a minute late or it's half a sick day!  There is no sense of women's empowerment in staff nursing, the total opposite, at least that was my experience.  Working conditions have only worsened in the last ten years, but especially during and after covid!

I'm simply saying how I see it.   Yes there has been the women's movement, the burn the bra, the fight for equal rights and pay, but that doesn't completely negate cultural and religious norms, ie a typical female child's upbringing.  Yes women have more career options than ever that is true, but many are still brought up to be caregivers. 

From my experience it seems to me a lot of nurses have a background of trauma, and I've seen many in abusive relationships as the primary breadwinner to someone that doesn't work has drug/alcohol problems etc. who may be physically abusive as well.  And I definitely feel hospital nursing is like an abusive relationship but you are getting paid, it's more emotionally manipulative, pulling on heartstrings and guilt, but physical abuse is there from the patients and management rarely stands up for workers so even that can be an element.  There can be a trauma bond.  Management can be nice when they want to when they need something, but they can turn on a dime, micromanage, threaten, and bully as well to control nurses that is pretty common. 

As to women power, that is not evident in nursing as a staff nurse you are treated as a number unless you are a favorite or work for a rare place or have a gem of a manager and that can change as soon as a new manager takes over or another corporate merger and someone like Ascension or HCA takes over!  A staff nurse is usually overworked, understaffed, micromanaged, mistreated and many bullied so that is another reason why the massive exodus of staff nurses.  The real question is how do they have any nurses left!

These are simply my thoughts, my lived experience and a reflection of my life and what I've observed from fellow nurses over my almost three decade career.  The good news is the younger nurses have changed and they aren't taking it anymore!  They are breaking free.  Most don't put up with the crappy working conditions and leave ASAP or if they stay they use the hospital as a stepping stone for a better career and life in the future and I'm all for it!

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

brandy1017 said:

You seem offended by my comments.  Has your experience been different not just for you but for the average nurse?  Yes you became a CRNA, but most nurses are staff nurses and most hospitals do everything they can to control us down to punching a time clock and don't you dare be a minute late or it's half a sick day!  There is no sense of women's empowerment in staff nursing, the total opposite, at least that was my experience.  Working conditions have only worsened in the last ten years, but especially during and after covid!

I'm simply saying how I see it.   Yes there has been the women's movement, the burn the bra, the fight for equal rights and pay, but that doesn't completely negate cultural and religious norms, ie a typical female child's upbringing.  Yes women have more career options than ever that is true, but many are still brought up to be caregivers. 

From my experience it seems to me a lot of nurses have a background of trauma, and I've seen many in abusive relationships as the primary breadwinner to someone that doesn't work has drug/alcohol problems etc. who may be physically abusive as well.  And I definitely feel hospital nursing is like an abusive relationship but you are getting paid, it's more emotionally manipulative, pulling on heartstrings and guilt, but physical abuse is there from the patients and management rarely stands up for workers so even that can be an element.  There can be a trauma bond.  Management can be nice when they want to when they need something, but they can turn on a dime, micromanage, threaten, and bully as well to control nurses that is pretty common. 

As to women power, that is not evident in nursing as a staff nurse you are treated as a number unless you are a favorite or work for a rare place or have a gem of a manager and that can change as soon as a new manager takes over or another corporate merger and someone like Ascension or HCA takes over!  A staff nurse is usually overworked, understaffed, micromanaged, mistreated and many bullied so that is another reason why the massive exodus of staff nurses.  The real question is how do they have any nurses left!

These are simply my thoughts, my lived experience and a reflection of my life and what I've observed from fellow nurses over my almost three decade career.  The good news is the younger nurses have changed and they aren't taking it anymore!  They are breaking free.  Most don't put up with the crappy working conditions and leave ASAP or if they stay they use the hospital as a stepping stone for a better career and life in the future and I'm all for it!

Do you think that are more than a handful of nurses who don't already know how badly nurses have been treated and that feminism hasn't helped at all?  Don't undergrads get exposed to some nursing history?  All of your issues are old history here at AN.

[brandy1017, ASN, RN]

subee said:

Do you think that are more than a handful of nurses who don't already know how badly nurses have been treated and that feminism hasn't helped at all?  Don't undergrads get exposed to some nursing history?  All of your issues are old history here at AN.

Your comments don't make sense.  First you react with am I mansplaining or womansplaining.  Your quote, "Are you mansplaining or womansplaing?  I spent 42 years in nursing and another 10 retired but keeping up with the literature.  Since we are coming up to 2024 and not a few years out of the Crimean War, we've had plenty of time to evolve into the thinking of another century.  I remember claims of woman power since the 1970's:)"  

I was merely answering your comment which didn't make sense to me.  How does woman power impact nursing?  What does the Crimean war have to do with it?  We are long past Florence Nightingale, but not according to Vanderbilt's CNO who a few years past used her as the rationale for nurses doing housekeeping work in addition to their nursing duties!

As to what nurses get exposed to in school I couldn't say personally.  Someone here who was a clinical instructor said she was told not to say anything negative to them.  These old issues have worsened and many of the new grads now are also dealing with a lot more student debt than in the past.  Many quit their first year and within 3-5 years leave nursing entirely.  More concerning than that is the high amount of depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts and actual suicide in nurses today.  At least twice the general public that don't work in the healthcare field.  The most recent was ER nurse Tristan Kate Smith whose father found a note to her abuser the hospital healthcare system she wrote just months before she died.