Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

[jive turkey]

Whether you're in support of the COVID vaccine, against it,  or on the fence please use this particular thread to cite credible, evidence-based sources to share with everyone so we can engage in a discussion that revolves around LEARNING.  

I'll start:

The primary concerns I've shared with others have to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected.  I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard.  There are medical professionals I've listened to that, in my personal opinion,  don't offer a definitive answer. 

Here are some links to 2 different, I'll start with just 2:

Cleveland Clinic Statement on Previous COVID-19 Infection Research

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021

[jive turkey]

5 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

We haven't gotten rid of the flu with vaccination. So why do we think a valid strategy is to get rid of covid altogether through vaccination? Shouldn't we focus on the protection of the highest risk? That seems more reasonable. It would certainly lend credibility to the vaccination argument as a whole.

Amen.  People are forgetting about the vast number of people that don't even have access to the vaccine around the world.  Why give the vaccine to a previously infected healthy 22 yo in a developed country when you could give it to someone more at risk?

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

2 hours ago, macawake said:

The fact that I said that you appear to have been affected by disinformation doesn’t make me smug, it just means that I’m in touch with reality. You did claim that the vaccines have caused an inordinate amount of deaths. Inordinate means excessive or unusually or disproportionately large. That simply isn’t true. However what is a fact, is that Covid-19 infections have caused millions of deaths worldwide. There is also no evidence that supports that reported Covid deaths have been inflated in any significant way. On the contrary, there is a lot of evidence that suggests that the global death toll is underreported.

About the UK statistics you included and asked why the fact that they indicate that more fully vaccinated individuals 50 years or older, have died (from a Delta variant infection) in the UK than their unvaccinated peers during the period February 1 to August 2 this year, isn’t worth discussing.

I think it’s worth discussing, but I’m afraid that now you’re really going to think that I’m smug. I’m actually happy to discuss it. Spoiler alert, the conclusion you drew is wrong. 
 

Let’s say that you are desperate for a job and you are suddenly offered two jobs. One on the East Coast and one on the West Coast. The jobs both require that you move to the small towns where these companies are located. 

Unfortunately there is a serial killer on the loose in both towns. The police actually think that it’s the same killer who ambulates back and forth from coast to coast, but so far they haven’t been able to catch him. You aren’t exactly thrilled by your options but you really, really need this job. So you decide to do a little research. 

As luck would have it the local newspapers in each of the two towns have just issued a special edition where they report the number of murders that have occurred in the past seven months. You quickly grab a copy each of the Slaytown Herald and the Croakville Gazette. Slaytown, population 4,509 reports 21 murders by the elusive, cardiovascularly very fit and highly efficient serial killer in the previous seven months and during that same time period 11 murders have taken place in Croakville, population 501. 

Based on this, would you really decide that Croakville is the safer option for you since they ”only” had 11 murders? 
 

The most recent stats regarding vaccination against Covid in the UK says that 88.4% of the population aged 16 or older have received their first dose, and 78.6% are fully vaccinated.

---

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

They started vaccinating early in December 2020 and they vaccinated the older folks and the medically vulnerable first. They likely have a slightly higher vaccine uptake in the older age groups than in younger. This is likely the reason why more people under 50 have been hospitalized since February according to the statistics you linked.

I’m sure you see where I was going with my hypothetical job hunt scenario…

 

In case you didn’t. If for example 85% of a certain age group are fully vaccinated and 10% are unvaccinated and there are 389 deaths in the 85% part of the total, and 205 deaths in the MUCH smaller 10% group.. then that means that the unvaccinated are dying at a much higher rate, despite the number of deaths being a smaller number. There are simply many more vaccinated individuals in the UK than unvaccinated and I don’t think it’s strange to see that there have been more deaths in that group.
 

If a country should manage to vaccinate 100% of its population, then 100% of deaths will be among the vaccinated. The difference is that there will be fewer deaths/infection since the vaccines offer a good protection (but not 100%).

That "study" is so fake and bogus.  And I can't even 

 

2 hours ago, macawake said:

The fact that I said that you appear to have been affected by disinformation doesn’t make me smug, it just means that I’m in touch with reality. You did claim that the vaccines have caused an inordinate amount of deaths. Inordinate means excessive or unusually or disproportionately large. That simply isn’t true. However what is a fact, is that Covid-19 infections have caused millions of deaths worldwide. There is also no evidence that supports that reported Covid deaths have been inflated in any significant way. On the contrary, there is a lot of evidence that suggests that the global death toll is underreported.

About the UK statistics you included and asked why the fact that they indicate that more fully vaccinated individuals 50 years or older, have died (from a Delta variant infection) in the UK than their unvaccinated peers during the period February 1 to August 2 this year, isn’t worth discussing.

I think it’s worth discussing, but I’m afraid that now you’re really going to think that I’m smug. I’m actually happy to discuss it. Spoiler alert, the conclusion you drew is wrong. 
 

Let’s say that you are desperate for a job and you are suddenly offered two jobs. One on the East Coast and one on the West Coast. The jobs both require that you move to the small towns where these companies are located. 

Unfortunately there is a serial killer on the loose in both towns. The police actually think that it’s the same killer who ambulates back and forth from coast to coast, but so far they haven’t been able to catch him. You aren’t exactly thrilled by your options but you really, really need this job. So you decide to do a little research. 

As luck would have it the local newspapers in each of the two towns have just issued a special edition where they report the number of murders that have occurred in the past seven months. You quickly grab a copy each of the Slaytown Herald and the Croakville Gazette. Slaytown, population 4,509 reports 21 murders by the elusive, cardiovascularly very fit and highly efficient serial killer in the previous seven months and during that same time period 11 murders have taken place in Croakville, population 501. 

Based on this, would you really decide that Croakville is the safer option for you since they ”only” had 11 murders? 
 

The most recent stats regarding vaccination against Covid in the UK says that 88.4% of the population aged 16 or older have received their first dose, and 78.6% are fully vaccinated.

---

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

They started vaccinating early in December 2020 and they vaccinated the older folks and the medically vulnerable first. They likely have a slightly higher vaccine uptake in the older age groups than in younger. This is likely the reason why more people under 50 have been hospitalized since February according to the statistics you linked.

I’m sure you see where I was going with my hypothetical job hunt scenario…

 

In case you didn’t. If for example 85% of a certain age group are fully vaccinated and 10% are unvaccinated and there are 389 deaths in the 85% part of the total, and 205 deaths in the MUCH smaller 10% group.. then that means that the unvaccinated are dying at a much higher rate, despite the number of deaths being a smaller number. There are simply many more vaccinated individuals in the UK than unvaccinated and I don’t think it’s strange to see that there have been more deaths in that group.
 

If a country should manage to vaccinate 100% of its population, then 100% of deaths will be among the vaccinated. The difference is that there will be fewer deaths/infection since the vaccines offer a good protection (but not 100%).

That study is so bogus.  How could anyone fall for tripe like that except for the zombies?

[macawake, MSN]

9 minutes ago, subee said:

The fact that you have to use Tor for your nefarious activities makes me believe that you really are a Russian bot!  It's creepy you would even admit to it.  You spread disinformation just to spread discontent.  Isn't that exactly how the Russians interfere with American societal norms?  Creepy, creepy.

The only people I’ve personally met or know of, who utilized ? routing have been criminals, hackers, conspiracy theorists, law enforcement and civilian and military Intelligence. It’s hardly anyone’s go-to for epidemiological research ?

[SmilingBluEyes]

Hardly a reputable way to defend one's position against vaccination using the TOR browser!

20 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

Amen.  People are forgetting about the vast number of people that don't even have access to the vaccine around the world.  Why give the vaccine to a previously infected healthy 22 yo in a developed country when you could give it to someone more at risk?

Why does it even need to be either/or? I got vaccines all my life as a healthy person. I did not have:

polio

MMR

Tetorifice

Diptheria

Pertussis

 

you get the point. My parents did not wait until I got sick to get the vaccines I needed.

We have been vaccinating  healthy people for generations. It's what we do to keep them healthy!

[jive turkey]

2 minutes ago, SmilingBluEyes said:

1.Hardly a reputable way to defend one's position against vaccination using the TOR browser!

Why does it even need to be either/or? I got vaccines all my life as a healthy person. I did not have:

polio,MMR,Tetorifice,Diptheria,Pertussis

2.We have been vaccinating  healthy people for generations. It's what we do to keep them healthy!

1. Do you know what Tor is and how it works?  Let's start with that before you condemn it.  Further I used it to find a study. Tor has no impact on the study, its authors, and its content. Do you have an issue with the study?

2.  Exactly, you never had any of those diseases.  The vaccine did its job protecting you from getting them.  If that's your argument for people who never had COVID I hear you. As for those that did, that's different.

[macawake, MSN]

23 minutes ago, macawake said:

Macawake’s wall of text..

29 minutes ago, subee said:

That "study" is so fake and bogus.  And I can't even 

 

That study is so bogus.  How could anyone fall for tripe like that except for the zombies?

 

I’m probably having a blonde moment… but ¿Qué? ?

[toomuchbaloney]

4 minutes ago, macawake said:

 

I’m probably having a blonde moment… but ¿Qué? ?

I suspect the quoting feature is glitching again. 

[SmilingBluEyes]

6 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

1. Do you know what Tor is and how it works?  Let's start with that before you condemn it.  Further I used it to find a study. Tor has no impact on the study, its authors, and its content. Do you have an issue with the study?

2.  Exactly, you never had any of those diseases.  The vaccine did its job protecting you from getting them.  If that's your argument for people who never had COVID I hear you. As for those that did, that's different.

Why use TOR?

Do educate me. Cause as far as I have known from what I have read it is indeed nefarious.

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

13 minutes ago, SmilingBluEyes said:

Why use TOR?

Do educate me. Cause as far as I have known from what I have read it is indeed nefarious.

I'm no IT specialist but TOR is not nefarious. From what I understand is basically a "VPN like" web browser. Doesn't track you. It's just a web browser at the end of the day. But it also allows you to see more than Google or Bing let's you see. That's what I understand anyway. The browser itself is not nefarious. 

[jive turkey]

8 minutes ago, SmilingBluEyes said:

Why use TOR?

Do educate me. Cause as far as I have known from what I have read it is indeed nefarious.

Plainly put, it's a browser that facilitates anonymous browsing and allows you to search via servers in various parts of the world.  A typical Google search is going to give results based on your location, data Google has collected about you and also SEO's (marketing strategies to get a website to rank higher on search results).  For me, that limits what I see to what Google, advertisers, and others WANT me to see.  

 

[macawake, MSN]

3 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

I'm no IT specialist but TOR is not nefarious. From what I understand is basically a "VPN like" web browser. Doesn't track you. It's just a web browser at the end of the day. But it also allows you to see more than Google or Bing let's you see. That's what I understand anyway. The browser itself is not nefarious. 

Who do you think uses a browser that ”doesn’t track you”? What kind of content would you expect to find due to the fact it’s much more hard for law enforcement to track? 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

3 minutes ago, macawake said:

Who do you think uses a browser that ”doesn’t track you”? What kind of content would you expect to find due to the fact it’s much more hard for law enforcement to track? 

My my. Aren't we the conspiracy theorist today. LOL

The browser ITSELF doesnt track you. Doesn't limit your access to what your searching for to what you've already searched for. Why being up the government? What is your deal? Maybe learn something before being so sure if yourself.