Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

[jive turkey]

Whether you're in support of the COVID vaccine, against it,  or on the fence please use this particular thread to cite credible, evidence-based sources to share with everyone so we can engage in a discussion that revolves around LEARNING.  

I'll start:

The primary concerns I've shared with others have to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected.  I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard.  There are medical professionals I've listened to that, in my personal opinion,  don't offer a definitive answer. 

Here are some links to 2 different, I'll start with just 2:

Cleveland Clinic Statement on Previous COVID-19 Infection Research

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021

[toomuchbaloney]

33 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

 

This clearly demonstrates a history of the medical community missing severe harm vaccines have caused in the past. When did we find out? It was licensed in 1949. They admitted the risk of encephalitis in 1992. That's a very long time to get answers. 

I rather think that your comment reflects an ignorance of the harm caused by Diphtheria,  Pertussis and/or Tetorifice prior to the development of effective vaccines.  Does it reflect that you've never cared for a child with pertussis or with tetorifice or that the suffering from the disease doesn't matter as much to you as vaccine adverse events matter? 

Vaccines are continuously scrutinized for efficacy and improvement.  Life without vaccination would be much different from your life experience.  

 

[SmilingBluEyes]

2 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

 

Vaccines are continuously scrutinized for efficacy and improvement.  Life without vaccination would be much different from your life experience.  

 

I daresay it would be like the middle ages.

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

47 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

I rather think that your comment reflects an ignorance of the harm caused by Diphtheria,  Pertussis and/or Tetorifice prior to the development of effective vaccines.  Does it reflect that you've never cared for a child with pertussis or with tetorifice or that the suffering from the disease doesn't matter as much to you as vaccine adverse events matter? 

Vaccines are continuously scrutinized for efficacy and improvement.  Life without vaccination would be much different from your life experience.  

 

Understand, I'm not arguing against the use of vaccines. I'm presenting evidence against their use as this thread is about that. There IS clear evidence harm was caused and it was not disclosed. I didn't make it up. I guess the article. The idea that so many are pushing as "just ignore the risks! It's perfectly safe!" No it's not. Nothing is. The question is, is that risk WORTH the potential benefit. I think it is in the case of many. But a universal vaccination, 100s of millions of people, is BOUND to hurt many many thousands of people. For what benefit? That's a question only the individual should make for themselves. That includes covid. Cost benefit applies universally and it is imperative we uphold the principle of informed consent. That includes covid. 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

1 hour ago, subee said:

Do we should just bring all these diseases back because their vaccines have side effects.  You must be very young and had the fortune of never knowing anyone with polio, measles,  mumps . diphtheria, typhoid and tetorifice.  You know why you have no idea of the fear engendered by these diseases?  Vaccines.  But all presents to humanity can't be wrapped in a beautiful package free from any harm.  If you expect perfection, you will deny yourself a lot of what vaccines have to offer....a life free if some awful diseases. 

I'm not arguing against vaccines. I'm presenting evidence against vaccines. There is a valid case to be made for AND against. As in all medicine, costs and benefit. It's not risk free and all good as so many want us to think these days. As I demonstrated, significant risk was withheld from the public. That happened and much harm was caused. Was it worth it? If your child died from it, I bet probably not. Overall? Sure. But to pretend there's no reason someone may want to refuse a vaccine? That is false. The claim about autism was discredited soundly. That's NOT a good case. But there ARE good cases such as what I cited. Everyone has a right to refuse. That includes vaccines.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

3 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

I'm presenting evidence against vaccines. There is a valid case to be made for AND against.

I missed the evidence. Can you link it again?

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

6 minutes ago, BostonFNP said:

I missed the evidence. Can you link it again?

Sure thing. 

Figured I'd throw a little BMJ in here. It's a historical review. One part that stuck out to me was: 

 

"Another bit of irony is that finally in 1992, the Institute of Medicine admitted that, "the evidence is consistent with a causal relation between DPT vaccine and acute encephalopathy, defined in the studies reviewed as encephalopathy, encephalitis or encephalomyelitis, and the evidenceindicates a causal relation between DPT vaccine and anaphylaxis, betweenthe pertussis component of DPT vaccine and protracted, inconsolablecrying." In other words, brain damage in progress.

 

These are but a minuscule of the evidence available on the DPT vaccine but show just how evidence can be HIDDEN FROM THE GENERAL PUBLIC IN THE GUISE PUBLIC PROTECTION ISSUES." (All caps for emphasis)

 

https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/how-can-vaccines-cause-damage

 

 

 

This clearly demonstrates a history of the medical community missing severe harm vaccines have caused in the past. When did we find out? It was licensed in 1949. They admitted the risk of encephalitis in 1992. That's a very long time to get answers

[jive turkey]

6 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

I'm not arguing against vaccines. I'm presenting evidence against vaccines. There is a valid case to be made for AND against. As in all medicine, costs and benefit. It's not risk free and all good as so many want us to think these days. As I demonstrated, significant risk was withheld from the public. That happened and much harm was caused. Was it worth it? If your child died from it, I bet probably not. Overall? Sure. But to pretend there's no reason someone may want to refuse a vaccine? That is false. The claim about autism was discredited soundly. That's NOT a good case. But there ARE good cases such as what I cited. Everyone has a right to refuse. That includes vaccines.

That's the scary thing.  People are getting angry that there are those who question the vaccine, have objections, concerns, and don't believe it is for everyone (contraindications aside).

Having a rigid unilateral perspective on any issue is dangerous.

 

 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

Just now, jive turkey said:

That's the scary thing.  People are getting angry that there are those who question the vaccine, have objections, concerns, and don't believe it is for everyone (contraindications aside).

Having a rigid unilateral perspective on any issue is dangerous.

 

 

Politics ruins everything

[toomuchbaloney]

25 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

But a universal vaccination, 100s of millions of people, is BOUND to hurt many many thousands of people. For what benefit? 

The benefit of reducing hospitalizations and deaths as we struggle to get to the end of a pandemic. That seems rather obvious. 

[toomuchbaloney]

4 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

Having a rigid unilateral perspective on any issue is dangerous.

You are calling health professionals who advocate for vaccination during a pandemic while challenging decisions to remain unvaccinated without true contraindication "rigid".  You keep implying that we aren't listening or reading or comprehending something rather than accepting that we do understand.  We just don't agree that these reasons to not vaccinate represent valid reasoning and we don't think that people should be encouraged to remain unvaccinated in the absence of true contraindication.  

Encouraging people to believe that it's OK to remain unvaccinated in the midst of a pandemic seems dangerous. 

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

Just now, toomuchbaloney said:

The benefit of reducing hospitalizations and deaths as we struggle to get to the end of a pandemic. That seems rather obvious. 

Your arguing for it. That's your position. And I agree with you with some personal exceptions. The problem is so many think your argument is the only one. "Your an ANTI VAXXER IDIOT! YOU WANT GRANDMA TO DIE! GERRRR!" this nonsense needs to end. Mandates, totalitarianism, and economic destruction of many peoples lives is what is happening right now. This isn't a debate. This is politics and it's hurting allot of people unnecessarily. Maybe more people would agree with you if it didn't look like a team bloodsport. 

[toomuchbaloney]

4 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Your arguing for it. That's your position. And I agree with you with some personal exceptions. The problem is so many think your argument is the only one. "Your an ANTI VAXXER IDIOT! YOU WANT GRANDMA TO DIE! GERRRR!" this nonsense needs to end. Mandates, totalitarianism, and economic destruction of many peoples lives is what is happening right now. This isn't a debate. This is politics and it's hurting allot of people unnecessarily. Maybe more people would agree with you if it didn't look like a team bloodsport. 

It's not my argument.  It's the public health argument. It's the science and data based argument.  It's the pandemic response argument.  It is the argument that acknowledges that we cannot get to the other side of this pandemic without vaccine mediated herd immunity.  This isn't a debate.  The science and the expert opinion is pretty solidified around vaccination. 

The destruction that you describe is because of the virus.  The belligerent refusal to follow public health recommendations for mitigation AND vaccination was political and that is all on Trump and his bunch.