Universal Deathcare.

[Kyrshamarks]

So those that support Universal Healthcare and how great it is care to explain to us how it was great for Alfie Evans? Hopefully not coming soon to the America near you.

[XB9S, BSN, MSN, EdD, RN, APN]

It was a brain dead body, there was no humanity left. It would be the equivalent of advocating against using a cadaver lab during nursing or med school, because of their "humanity". Frankly, Im not going to "spare the feelings" of someone who doesn't seem to understand basic physiology and yet claims to be in the field of medicine.

I will ask you the same question I asked the OP, do you think the pt with a cranial cavity full of fluid and lysed neurons was going to spontaneously recover? If so, how?

I will await your explanation.

I don't think coffee is questioning the physiology at all but highlighting this is a emotive issue, we can debate and remain compassionate to the tragedy of the situation whilst expressing our thoughts and feelings.

At the end of the day this was someone's child, and we can acknowledge the futility of further intervention in a respectful and compassionate manner.

[broughden]

I don't think coffee is questioning the physiology at all but highlighting this is a emotive issue, we can debate and remain compassionate to the tragedy of the situation whilst expressing our thoughts and feelings.

At the end of the day this was someone's child, and we can acknowledge the futility of further intervention in a respectful and compassionate manner.

Those of us advocating for Alfie on this thread are trying to argue his humanity.

I am trying to get across the point they are "advocating" for a corpse, being artificially kept alive by life support. It appears based on the responses here, that such bluntness is in fact warranted as they do not appear to be getting the point.

[MunoRN, RN]

Can we temper our zeal for realistic descriptions with a little common decency please. Those of us advocating for Alfie on this thread are trying to argue his humanity. Language like this is crude and unnecessary.

The dramatics of the description aside, the description is correct, I'm not sure it's legitimate to ask that someone fundamentally change description of their view to make it easier to argue against.

[MunoRN, RN]

I don't think coffee is questioning the physiology at all but highlighting this is a emotive issue, we can debate and remain compassionate to the tragedy of the situation whilst expressing our thoughts and feelings.

At the end of the day this was someone's child, and we can acknowledge the futility of further intervention in a respectful and compassionate manner.

It seems to be the fact that broughden is stating their position in a compassionate manner that people are disagreeing with. The things we do to maintain life are only morally justifiable when there is at least some small potential for benefit. When that potential for benefit isn't there, those same things become a form of physical assault and is only serving to maintain a pulse rather than life. The suggestion that we should subject a small child to that abuse understandably brings an emotionally charged response, at it should. If there's disagreement with that response then it's the fundamental basis of the disagreement that should be challenged.

[Coffee Nurse, BSN, RN]

If anybody would bother to read my other responses in this thread, they'll see I have been very strongly on the side of the hospital, the medical team, and Alfie's right to a peaceful and dignified death in the face of unsurmountable physical obstacles. That said -- I am a NICU nurse. I have supported families as they've let their children go, and I have cared for the bodies of babies who have passed away. I have taken a baby from his mother's arms to have his organs retrieved for transplant. Just because they are gone does not mean they are a HUNK OF MEAT. They are still humans, albeit dead ones. Show some respect.

[Apple-Core, ASN, BSN, RN]

No I believe the OP is a US nurse.

Interesting....unless the OP has lived in a UHC country, I'm not sure they are really in a position to comment with such vitriol.

[Apple-Core, ASN, BSN, RN]

I am trying to get across the point they are "advocating" for a corpse, being artificially kept alive by life support. It appears based on the responses here, that such bluntness is in fact warranted as they do not appear to be getting the point.

Coffee wasn't advocating for a "corpse"...please go back and read their posts. They were in favor of a humane and peaceful death. They also recognized the traumatic and grief-stricken situation the parents found themselves in.

[Coffee Nurse, BSN, RN]

Broughden, judging by a peek at your posting history, you don't appear to be in the medical profession at all, your repeated catchphrase about lysed neurons notwithstanding. You've missed the entire point of what I'm trying to say here. Yes, I am advocating for Alfie. I am NOT advocating for his parents, because, with all the good will in the world, their desires did not line up with his best interests.

Frankly, I find your attitude a bit disturbing in one proposing to go into nursing. Even people working in cadaver labs handle those bodies with a modicum of respect (or should, at least) for the humans that they were. Our care of the body does not end at the moment that life ends. For that matter, your distasteful descriptions were inaccurate insofar as he was not a "corpse" on the vent, as evidenced by his brainstem's ability to maintain function for a few days after extubation.

[Pippynurseuk]

It was a brain dead body, there was no humanity left. It would be the equivalent of advocating against using a cadaver lab during nursing or med school, because of their "humanity". Frankly, Im not going to "spare the feelings" of someone who doesn't seem to understand basic physiology and yet claims to be in the field of medicine.

.

Just wanted to clarify a point. Alfie was not brain dead, he was in a persistent vegetative state. This was an important factor in the decisions made in Alfie's best interest. Alfie was having seizures which were triggered by movement, light and noise. Although the doctors felt it unlikely that Alfie had any true awareness they could not be sure that he wasn't suffering, hence the decision to withdraw treatment and the decision to not inflict on him the rigours of a journey to another country. But no, he wasn't technically brain dead.

[broughden]

Broughden, judging by a peek at your posting history, you don't appear to be in the medical profession at all, your repeated catchphrase about lysed neurons notwithstanding.

Im a nursing student. And "lysed" isnt a catch phrase its an accurate description of a broken down cell.

Everything else you posted, in so far as how much respect should be shown to a cadaver or body, is a matter of culture and opinion. I will respect your views but they are not my own.

[broughden]

Just wanted to clarify a point. Alfie was not brain dead, he was in a persistent vegetative state. This was an important factor in the decisions made in Alfie's best interest. Alfie was having seizures which were triggered by movement, light and noise. Although the doctors felt it unlikely that Alfie had any true awareness they could not be sure that he wasn't suffering, hence the decision to withdraw treatment and the decision to not inflict on him the rigours of a journey to another country. But no, he wasn't technically brain dead.

Do you mind pointing me to a source on his EEG's?

The only thing I have seen are normal news reports but according to the media, during the trial expert testimony said there were no brain waves present except during seizures.

403 Forbidden

Speaking before Alfie's death, an expert said more recent EEGs showed there was now "nothing happening" in terms of the little boy's brainwaves between seizures.

[Coffee Nurse, BSN, RN]

Im a nursing student. And "lysed" isnt a catch phrase its an accurate description of a broken down cell.

Everything else you posted, in so far as how much respect should be shown to a cadaver or body, is a matter of culture and opinion. I will respect your views but they are not my own.

I know what cell lysis is. I was referring to the "cranial cavity full of water and lysed neurons" that you've repeated at least three times in this thread.

As you say you're a parent, I'm surprised at your attitude towards a dead child. It will be interesting to see how your views change as you progress through school and start working, especially if you end up in a position to handle death much.