Unions

[Whisper]

I was just wondering peoples views on Unions, from reading other posts I got the inpression that unions are not a standard thing. One of my lectures this semester was two of the big nursing unions came in and gave us informations, so we could join. They are even willing to cover us as students.

What does everyone else think about unions?

[ReluctantMonk]

If you want representation, a living wage, the right to barter, better benefits, and job security then a union is the way to go. At the facility where I work any nurse can be fired or terminated at the drop of a hat; no reason is needed. Can you imagine where autoworkers, policemen, government employees, truckers, etc. would be today if they had no unions? SOL....My father is retired from the auto industry with a great pension and complete health benefits including a drug card. How many retired nurses can say that?

[CashewLPN, LPN]

I am a member of a union... its a medical personell union--- 1199

i am looking to become a delegate.... we need one as our old one tragically passed away earlier this year....

So--- I like my union.... its a good deal...

--Barbara

[nurs4kids]

Jt,

As a union, you have no more power over your employer than a "group" would have. The power is in numbers, not in being called a union. A hospital is just as likely to negotiate with a "group" as they are a union. They can just as easily leave you on the picket line as they could a "group". You twisted my christmas example so you could defend unions. I never said holidays are based on seniority. I said, IF I'm off and I choose to work and allow my friend to be off, I can not do that freely. In Wisconsin, where an old coworker works, they are unionized and this is the case. Last year, she wanted to work for someone with kids, but wasn't allowed to do so unless she FIRST offered to work for those with more seniority. In my area, the THREAT of a union works just as effectively as unionizing ever could. We have most of the same benefits you list above, short of free benefits (but our benefits are still very reasonable). How many of those benefits you list above are offered to nurses only, and not the entire hospital staff?? We have the same benefits, and more, but they are offered to the entire staff.

Protected by law is a person or groups right to represent themselves. So your statement about nurses as a "group" not having bargaining power is completely false. A "group" or an individual, even, has the same power as your union. If a hospital signs a contract with a "group", that contract is just as legally binding as one signed with a union. If I'm wrong, please direct me to the law that stated an employer is not legally bound to a contract UNLESS that contract is with a union.

The thread here that addresses salaries, does not reflect what you're saying about unionized nurses making more than non-unionized nurses. The salary differences are spread more toward years of service, cost of living and region.

I am not anti-union, as it may sound. I still feel nurses need to step up and speak for themselves. However, I think people need to be given their options w/o the twisting of words and law. Nurses have been stepped on by administration long enough, we don't need to allow our own people to lead us blindly down the "road to freedom". The same things can be accomplished through solidarity that can be accomplished through unionization..and it can be done without the large union fees. Don states above that he volunteers his time as a rep. So, I still don't understand where the large amount of money collected as "union dues" goes. You said someone just voted to increase their dues so they could gain more benefits. Could you be more specific as to what they are gaining??

It just seems to me that the nurses that are ANA & unionized feel their way is the ONLY way. I feel if that way was so great, the rest of us would have been beating down your doors. You wouldn't NEED the staffing ratio's in your contract, EVERYONE would be dying to work where your union is represented; EVERYONE would be rushing to send in their ANA dues.

Give me some solid evidence that unions are the answer. Please don't twist and manipulate words. Don't tell me the pay's better, give me the pay rate. Tell me what law says a hospital doesn't have to recognize a contract with a non-union group.

Thanks.

[nurs4kids]

Jt,

I cut and pasted the following from another thread. I hope the author will forgive me, but I felt the need to ask for understanding. Isn't Minnesota a big union state? Here you have a Minnesota nurse with 30yrs experience. Why is she anti-ANA, why isn't she promoting unions?? I just don't understand why, if unionization is the answer, the experienced people aren't in agreement. Here's her post:

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WriteStuff

Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2001

Location: Central Southwest Minnesota

Posts: 53

and while I'm at it..........

............and while I'm at it.............

I'm also SICK TO DEATH of the "caste system" we have in our Profession.

We have you and me, on the FRONT LINES, in THE TRENCHES, and BEARING THE BRUNT of this very serious problem.

WE are level #1.

Then we have: corporate level "Nurse" administrators, managers, and supervisors, who are level #2 and sit on their laurels inflicting further abuse upon us by demanding (mandatory overtime for example), or threatening ("if you don't stay you can kiss your job goodbye") and exist in their own little world of ping-pong "management" taking orders from above in order to save their own orifices and paychecks.

Level #3 consists of the over-educated, pontificating, seminar-holding "experts" in our field who have never even set foot inside of a health care institution as an "employee" for a nano-second, and march around with a dozen letters after their names trying to convince you and me that "this isn't so bad, settle down now, and come, let us reason together."

Level #4 consists of the rest in our profession who are so far removed from reality they should all be taking antipsychotics by the boat-load............our own ANA, Boards of Nursing, Professional Journal Editors and Staff, the NLN, our lofty State Nursing Associations, etc. etc.

Levels #2,3, and 4 SHOULD be the POWER behind our punch, but they are ALL "comfortable" right where they are.........so why should they make themselves "uncomfortable" for you and me, and God forbid..........for our patients that we serve day after day??

As I see it..........

Bonnie

__________________

Bonnie Creighton,RN, MHCA

Mental Health Consumer Advocate

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

12-14-2001 10:41 AM

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just wondering...

[OC_An Khe]

Nurs4kids,

You are missing an important point which gives the "Union" more power to negotiate a contract than an "individual or group of nurses". There is no legal force requiring an employer to negotiate with an individual/group that hasn't asked for protection under the NLRB ( group formed into a Union). Without Union's legal protction the employer can say no, get out of here or you are termnated. This can not by law happen with a Union in place. With Union status there are mandatory areas of bargaining that the employer can not refuse to negotiate.

I have been employed by hospitals, at various levels of responsibilities, since the 1960's and rarely found individual employment contracts for nurses except for a few high level executives and they had difficulty enforcing those contracts.

There is an old saying in organized labor circles that I learned in my graduate school class on labor management: The Union doesn't organize the employees but it's the management of the employer that does.

Nurses Unions don't go where they are not invited. If you chose not to invite them that is your choice and one that should be respected.

In an employee at will situation, virtually all non union employment in the health care feild, all your conditions of employment , compensation and benefits can be changed at the whim of the employer without legal recourse by the employee. This can not happen at a Union facility.I have expirienced this many times in a non union facility. Granted the reverse happens in times of shortage but that happens far less frequently then the former.

You have a choice about being pro or anti union, but base it upon the history of Nursing Unions and not the hisory of all unions.

[nurs4kids]

Will you guys, PLEEEEEASE, instead of telling me a non-union group has no bargaining rights quote me the law that says an employer ONLY HAS to bargain with a union..a group is ONLY protected by the labor relations act IF they are union??????????

Also, they are only required to negotiate with you to a point. Just as the Air Traffic Controllers were ordered back to work, by the president...same can and probably would be done with nurses during a shortage. I don't find that a form of protection.

[OC_An Khe]

Nurs4kids

Pleeeease read and learn. Of course there is no law prohibiting an employer from negotiating with a group,just as there is no law COMPELLING them to negotiate with you. I have been personally been in that position. If the employer doesn't want to negotiate they don't. A group action threatens their, the employers power and this they usually don't give up willingly.There is a law, The National Labor Relations Board and similar Acts to be specific that compels the employer to negotiate with the Union.

As for your reference to the Air Traffic Controllers they committed an ILLEGAL ACT AND SUFFERED THE CONSEQUENCES. It had nothing to do with their ability to negotiate.

If you don't want to be represented by a Union and have its legal protections that fine, but don't try and equate the legal protection afforded by an NLRB protected Union and a "group" of

employess.

[-jt]

We are not paid for the work we do as reps. I am a staff RN in an ICU at a teaching facility & I do only get 2 pts because that is the staffing ratio we determined for my unit & had written into the contract. That staff RNjob is the only job I am paid for. The other work I do as a union delegate, bargaining unit executive council officer and member of the negotiating teams, as well as UAN delegate IS a donation of my time - because improving my workplace, my conditions of employment, and the environment for my pts is my professional obligation to myself.

None of us are paid to be union reps.

[donmurray]

Can you be eloquently succinct, or succinctly eloquent? Anyway well put. Better than I did!

Don

[-jt]

Sorry to disappoint you but that is incorrect. You must have missed this part:

Doing all that you would be doing as a group but doing it as a union of nurses, instead of just a group of nurses, turns the tables in your favor and PUTS THE POWER OF THE LAW behind you.

Thats the difference.

A UNION of nurses certainly does have a hell of a lot more power than just a group has. A UNION of nurses has federal legal rights that a mere group does not have. A union of nurses has not just the power of numbers behind it. It has the power of the FEDERAL LAW behind it. A "group" of nurses has nothing but what the administrator will allow. And youre wrong too about there being no difference between a union & a group when it comes to negotiating with the employer. For one thing, when the administrator will not negotiate with a "group", they have no power to do anything about it - other than to accept whatever he wants to do to them or quit. Conversely, a union of nurses has the POWER OF THE LAW TO FORCE him to negotiate.

There is no such law saying an employer may not negotiate with a "group" of nurses IF HE WANTS TO. The key there is IF HE WANTS TO> As a "group" of nurses, you are dependent on what the employer wants to do. Unionized nurses are not. The law says the employer MUST negotiate with the "union" of nurses whether he wants to or not. Thats the difference in power. The point, if I may try to make it clear again - is that WHEN THE EMPLOYER REFUSES TO NEGOTIATE WITH A "GROUP", THERE IS NO LAW THAT WILL FORCE HIM TO AND THERE IS NO RECOURSE FOR THE GROUP. The group either bites the bullet, does what the employer wants, or moves on. HOWEVER, When an employer refuses to negotiate with a "UNION" of nurses, there ARE laws that WILL force him to - the union of nurses MUST be a partner in the decsion-making that affects them - the employer is not in sole control of the reigns. Thats a huge difference in power, dear.

The difference is the recourse. A mere group of nurses has none. A union of nurses has many & they are upheld by the power of the law. A group of nurses is dependent on whatever the employer decides and allows. A union of nurses, by law, is guaranteed equal partnership in making those decisions and is not dependent on what the employer wants to allow.

Regarding the air traffic controllers, Im sure you understand that they are federal employees and under the law are prohibited from striking. Thats why they were forced to go back to work - because they took an illegal action. There is no such law governing nurses in the private sector. Workers in this country have a federal right to strike and that right, like all the others, cannot be usurped, so your argument does not apply.

Regarding the unhappy nurse in Minnesota, youd have to ask HER why she is not happy.

[-jt]

a group is ONLY protected by the labor relations act IF they are union??????????>

There are laws that apply to members of organized unions which would not apply to non-union workers. There are also laws that favor employers of non-union workers which do not apply to employers at unionized facilities. But No need to beg for an answer......

Since you dont seem to be understanding the answers that have been given here, you can look it up very easily on the NLRB website or any employment law site.

[wildtime88]

Nurs4kids, arguing with JT is pointless.

She has told you how the laws support formal unions and even force employers to negotiate with them.

Then she posts this on another topic.

"The Registered Nurses at St Catherines of Siena Catholic Health Systems (CHS) on Long Island, NY have been on strike for 20 days because their employer refuses to address their serious concerns about short staffing, mandatory OT, retention and recruitment incentives (salaries and benefits) as well as other working conditions."

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12505

Like I said, you will never win with her.

What makes matters even worse is that she has been posting on the Nursing Activism/Politics section in favor of legislation that will actually weaken union/nursing bargaining power in the future that I have posted against.

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12422

jt simply follows the union and ANA doctrine and regurgitates it without much thought.

You can not win an arguement with a person like this.