Truth about UAB NP-FNP program

futureeastcoastNP · Feb 8, 2014

I interpreted this as: "UAB is difficult, choose a different program. Online NP schools are supposed to be easy!"

This is is training to be a provider...it's not supposed to be easy nor is it supposed to be based on the students schedule. Medical school is still 100x more difficult and do you think med students get a break?

freedomrn1 · Feb 8, 2014

And you know this about medical schools because...? The program sound like a overloaded content rich curriculum. Learning can be challenging without being tortuous. There needs to be a balance in the learning format in these curriculums.

zmansc, ASN, RN · Feb 8, 2014

I interpreted this as: "UAB is difficult, choose a different program. Online NP schools are supposed to be easy!"

I think that is a fairly harsh interpretation. It sounds to me like, this program does not provide alot of tools to help the students towards obtaining the necessary information needed to become good providers.... "very much a self taught program".... "don't have lectures"....

Education can be done in ways that make learning easier or harder. I believe this poster is suggesting that this program does not always choose the route that makes the learning process easier for the learner. There is nothing about educating someone to become a provider (or a nurse for that matter) that means we have to pick the most difficult routes towards gaining our requisite knowledge.

I saw nothing in their post suggesting that the OP believes "online education is suppose to be easier", I think you are taking this to an extreme of your own choosing. If you don't approve of online education, then that is fine, but this thread is not about that.

futureeastcoastNP · Feb 8, 2014

I think that is a fairly harsh interpretation. It sounds to me like, this program does not provide alot of tools to help the students towards obtaining the necessary information needed to become good providers.... "very much a self taught program".... "don't have lectures"....
Education can be done in ways that make learning easier or harder. I believe this poster is suggesting that this program does not always choose the route that makes the learning process easier for the learner. There is nothing about educating someone to become a provider (or a nurse for that matter) that means we have to pick the most difficult routes towards gaining our requisite knowledge.
I saw nothing in their post suggesting that the OP believes "online education is suppose to be easier", I think you are taking this to an extreme of your own choosing. If you don't approve of online education, then that is fine, but this thread is not about that.

I don't think that about online programs...I support them fully most of the time. I think most RNs though think getting their NP online is supposed to be like stopping to get butter on the way home from work. With all the breaks they give NP students (part time 1 class at a time, asynchronous learning, etc, none of which happen in medical or PA school) they've made it too easy. I don't think people should be complaining about NP education being difficult, if anything it needs to become more difficult not easier. I have plenty of college friends in medical school and no, they do not get to work full time and take one class at a time nor is the information spoon fed to them.

zmansc, ASN, RN · Feb 8, 2014

I don't think that about online programs...I support them fully most of the time.

Your posts on this and many other threads would lead one to believe that you do not support online programs, and even though you are planning on applying to them you seem to think they produce inferior results, of which I have seen you post exactly zero pieces of evidence.

I think most RNs though think getting their NP online is supposed to be like stopping to get butter on the way home from work.

Yes, you have expressed these feelings as well on several other threads. What exactly did this poster say that indicated that they were not willing to put in the effort to learn? Because they wanted the flexibility to take courses at a pace that would allow them to absorb all of the information? Or because they found it difficult to learn all of the information without much in the way of aids?

I find it admirable that they want more help from the program so that they can digest the information more fully before proceeding on to clinicals and practice. Which would you prefer, someone who scrapped by at a program that didn't really prepare them fully, or someone who took their time (which may not be the same pace you or I could handle but got the information and knowledge down fully?

With all the breaks they give NP students (part time 1 class at a time, asynchronous learning, etc, none of which happen in medical or PA school) they've made it too easy.[\QUOTE]
So because other types of programs (MD, DO, PA, etc) do not offer something, offering it is bad? In and of itself, no other reason? Or is there a reason why it's bad to offer more flexibility? I'm still missing the point in your argument here.
I don't think people should be complaining about NP education being difficult, if anything it needs to become more difficult not easier. I have plenty of college friends in medical school and no, they do not get to work full time and take one class at a time nor is the information spoon fed to them.
Again, I'm not sure why we have to try to be like medical school. That is one model, for one group of people. It is not our model for NP school.
Yes, there are many issues with NP education, but making it flexible, allowing some to work while going to school while others go straight through and providing good quality educational environments is not a bad thing. And when someone points out that they believe the program they signed up for doesn't meet these basic standards, attacking them as lazy and needing to be "spoon fed" is not appropriate.

futureeastcoastNP · Feb 8, 2014

zmansc, the OP essentially complained about:

1. "They offer classes on the layout of the program." - Yes, most programs have a specific layout that must be followed. It's called a progression plan.

2. "There are many timed exams because they are hard on state board passing rates." - The schools wants to keep a high passing rate on boards, so preps students with lots of examinations. Not seeing the problem here?

3. "You don't get many breaks during the school year." - I can understand why that might be important to point out to some people, but it is by no means something negative. To complete an entire program leading to the ability to diagnose and treat live patients in two years should likely mean very few breaks.

4. "There is no part time program." No other healthcare provider program is part-time either. I've never seen a part time medical school.

5. "It's a tough program...you have to use outside resources." - It's graduate school, of course you have to do a lot of self teaching. Spoon feeding of information stops after undergraduate level.

I am simply saying that while I understand this program doesn't work for the OP, none of her complaints are actually negative about the quality of the program. I think posting things about not vetting preceptors, or teaching a ton of fluff courses and very little science would be valid complaints about the quality of the program...but these things just seem like inconveniences that shouldn't hinder those that are completely committed and ready to become an NP. If someone posted these same complaints on an MD or PA forum they would be laughed at, flamed, and likely labeled a troll.

I never called the OP lazy, nor have I attached her personally at any point. I simply stated that these are not really "negatives" about the school. It does seem UAB does not work for HER, so she should probably switch schools. I'm sure many people appreciate the information she has presented, though.

P.S. I have never attacked online education. I have attacked for profit schools, which are very different. All online schools are not for profit. I have never entertained the thought of attending a for profit school and never will. I would happily go to an online NP program, provided they vetted the preceptors and had sufficient on campus time.

zmansc, ASN, RN · Feb 8, 2014

futureeastcoastNP,

Actually, the OP pointed out several things that indicate the educational environment in this program is poor. A few from the original post include:

- They don't have lectures.

- It is mostly a self taught program.

- You have to use other resources outside of the school to understand the material.

(All direct quotes from the posting #1).

However, in your post #6 you conveniently left these as well as others issues out because they didn't support your argument. So, no your suggestion that the OPs complaints are invalid is not correct. Also, I really don't care what the reaction to this post wold be in another professions board, I don't see any relevance to that either. The OP is actually pointing out what I would consider fairly serious flaws in the program. As someone who has experience in grad school first hand, I can tell you that these flaws in the educational environment are not something to be glossed over.

Second, I noticed you didn't answer a single one of my questions, all you did was to very liberally paraphrase the OP, and then try to reduce this to a hard vs easy argument which I find to be a very simplistic argument that suggests you do not understand the complexities and intricacies that exist in something as big as a professional grad school program. If you want to continue to have this discussion, I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions in my posts (both this one and post #5).

Third, the point of grad school is not to make it hard or difficult. "Hard" programs are not automatically better programs, they are just more difficult for the student to gain the knowledge from. In post #1 you said: "This is training to be a provider....it's not suppose to be easy nor is it suppose to be based on the students schedule". I'm going to take your "easy" as the opposite of "hard" in other postings of yours and replace them with rigid/inflexible vs flexible schedule as this seems to be a big issue you have with the OP's complaints, that she wants the program to be more flexible.

Why is it you believe that being more inflexible and rigid is better? The only thing I have seen in all of your postings is this is more like med school and you apparently think that model is better. I personally don't want to go to anything like med school, don't think they have a model that would serve me better, so I choose to go to NP school. The increased flexibility of NP schools does not make it inferior. Yes, there are issues with oversight of programs, and other issues with NP programs that are not a part of this thread. I would suggest we keep those issues separate as they are not related to this and are being discussed on other threads.

Finally, in response to your points in post #6:

1. Progression Plan. Some programs offer multiple plans, with multiple timelines. Some offer students to adjust based on outside schedule. Other programs are more rigid and only allow one rate that the entire cohort needs to go through. The OP pointed out that this program is more rigid than expected. My own program offers two, but there is a penalty for switching between them, which I find disappointing. I would have checked into this prior to entering the program, and I have no knowledge if the OP did check into it and got misinformed, or if the OP didn't realize this would be an issue. This would not be an issue with non professional post grad programs so, unless someone has been in a professional post grad program they might not know to check into it. No, I don't see an issue with the OP pointing this out, although you glossed over several of the OP's points on this to make it seem like they were whining.

2. Timed exams. I think the OP is suggesting that there are more timed exams than necessary. To be truthful, the issue being raised by the OP isn't clear to me, but I gave the OP the benefit of the doubt. I figure they know the details and I do not, as I haven't been in their program. No, I don't see a problem with the OP pointing this out.

3. Breaks during program, different speeds of course work. This seems to me to be the same issue as #1, so I left it at that when I read the OP's posting. The program is very rigid and the OP doesn't like the rigidity, so they are warning future students. I don't see anything wrong with letting others know of this rigidity in the program so they will be prepared if they choose to go there.

4. See #1 & #3.

5. Here is where you seriously mis-quote the OP again. Just because it's grad school does not mean students need no assistance in learning the information. Students in many (all) B&M programs receive lectures, labs, and other instruction that helps them learn. Students in many online programs have this assistance as well to help them learn. Some online programs are better than others, as are some B&M programs better than others. I don't believe that the OP is asking to be "spoon fed" (your words from post #6 and #4) the OP is simply suggesting that the current program as designed is very rigid and provides insufficient learning tools. BTW, if your friends in med school are in B&M type programs, I bet they are being spoon fed the information much more than the OP is asking for in her program!

tyloo · Feb 9, 2014

I don't think the OP was complaining. She stated UAB is an excellent program, but there were things that did not work for her.

This is an informative post for people considering UAB. The strict adherence to the plan of study would be problematic for me. I went to USA and decided for my spring semester to add a class, so I would not have to take 2 classes and my practicum in the following fall semester. I was so glad that I did that! I think it is hard to estimate how time consuming grad school is until you actually start the program. I know I was not sure if I would be able to be in the full time program or the part time program. I was able to stick with the full time program. If I had to switch to part time I would have liked to be able to do that. I think there should be some flexibility to the program, so I get what the OP was saying.

futureeastcoastNP · Feb 9, 2014

zmansc,

I'm a big enough person that I can admit when I am wrong. I just read through the OPs post and my responses, and I think in this case I was wrong. For the past few days I have been reading endless posts on allnurses about how wonderful for profit schools are, how it doesn't matter if clinical preceptors are vetted, etc etc. I was just so riled up from all of these pathetic attitudes towards the profession that that I let it carry over to this thread, which was wrong. Some of the OPs concerns are likely valid and honestly not something I would want to hear about a program I was considering.

Having said that, I do think NP education should be difficult and inflexible. Trying to make it as easy as possible for anyone who wants to go will eventually lead to a huge over saturation of the NP market with poorly prepared graduates. If medical and PA students can pack up their lives, quit their jobs, and move near their campus, I think NP students should do the same. It's the only way to attract only the truly committed to this field, as well as build respect for the profession. It's hard to defend an NP degree when I know deep down they have lowered the standards to the the point that literally anyone can find a way to get one with very little inconvenience - taking one online class at a time until they've completed enough credits to be an NP. That's not an education - it's buying a degree piece by piece.

tyloo · Feb 9, 2014

I did not go to school for NP, but I went to an online nursing graduate program. Flexibility does not equate to easiness. It is hard. It is time consuming. It is challenging. I am proud that I am a nurse. I am proud that nursing education allows fellow nurses to go back to school and work.

Some nurses don't mind moving to campus, not working, and taking a huge student loan debt. That is fine if it works for them. I am proud though that it does not have to be that way. There are nurses who have been practicing for years and have kids in college. Maybe some of them would like to become an NP and not sell the house, be jobless, and hours away on campus. There are single mothers or fathers that can go to NP school and still work part time. I hear a lot on these threads that many in NP school start full time at their jobs and then go part time or per diem for their clinicals. People that attend online and work do make sacrifices.

I hope when you do become an NP that you are proud of your degree and your are proud of your profession.

zmansc, ASN, RN · Feb 9, 2014

I'm glad you re-read the post and considered it with an open mind.

Having said that, I do think NP education should be difficult and inflexible. Trying to make it as easy as possible for anyone who wants to go will eventually lead to a huge over saturation of the NP market with poorly prepared graduates. If medical and PA students can pack up their lives, quit their jobs, and move near their campus, I think NP students should do the same. It's the only way to attract only the truly committed to this field, as well as build respect for the profession. It's hard to defend an NP degree when I know deep down they have lowered the standards to the the point that literally anyone can find a way to get one with very little inconvenience - taking one online class at a time until they've completed enough credits to be an NP. That's not an education - it's buying a degree piece by piece.

I guess we will disagree on that point. I am not able to relocate for my education. I'm the step-dad to two teenage boys who want to be in the same town as their father, so no matter what my family lives here, in a small rural town that does not have a NP (or a PA, MD, or DO) program. So basically if your proposal was in effect my choices would be miss my boy's teenage years, or don't become an FNP. But because our profession has determined it is ok for me to get an education from a distance, I do not have to make that choice. I do not have to be out of my children's lives for their teen years.

I think one of the big stated goals for NP education is to support rural providers. There is significant evidence that shows people who are able to obtain their education in their rural setting, stay in that rural setting at a much higher rate than those who go to a city to obtain their education. This is the second reason, I believe it is actually beneficial to the profession to make our educational system be designed so that future providers can obtain their education while remaining in their rural hometown. I don't think that leads to market saturation, I think watered down admissions and an excessive number of programs due to poor oversight and easy accreditation might lead to market saturation, but I think that is an issue for another thread.

I would also question if the standards are actually lowered by allowing a person to achieve their degree on a different timeline, but I'm going to leave that for others, as I believe someone else already posted on that.

I will agree with you wholeheartedly that improvements can be made to the NP education model. As someone who is in the middle of it, I believe that changes could be made to the curriculum that would improve it. I have not completed the program, and had 5 years of practice, so I will wait and make those suggestions after I have enough experience to back up my beliefs. Several people tell me that there are issues with preceptor management by many programs. I am not experiencing that at my program, so I will take their word for it that other programs have these issues. I do not believe the model is a failure, I believe it can be improved incrementally and will provide me and others going through it a solid base upon which to enter the profession.