Topic of the Day: GO AWAY FOREIGN NURSES!

World Immigration

Published

This is exactly how I feel each time I log into the International Forum. I don't feel welcome as a foreign born nurse. I don't feel respected as a minority in this country. All I feel is the hatred and insults thrown at us simply because we are not Americans.

So let's talk about it, since threads were locked and posts were deleted because they were "out of the topic" hence we could not freely express and justify how we feel about the criticisms on foreign born and/or foreign trained nurses. Each and every time I read something that "put down" certain minorities, it makes me feel sick to my stomach. Being discriminated all my life, I truly understand how other foreign nurses, especially the Filipino nurses, feel. No, you simply won't understand if you were not in our shoes.

Every one has his/her point of view on certain issues, but attacking, criticizing and (worst) making generalizations of other races, cultures and beliefs is just not right, insensitive and ethnocentric. Yes, we are immigrants, but you don't have to yell it to our face. The US would not have prosper if not for the immigrants. Don't forget your family or ancestors were once immigrants as well, unless you are Native Americans. So you have no rights to ask us get out if we are legally here, unless this is your native land. Remember, America is the land of opportunity that were built through slavery from Africa and Asia.

I wonder sometimes, how could you be a professional nurse if you are culturally insensitive? How could you offer the best care if all you think is your own self and your own beliefs, and disregard other culture and belief systems? I see nurses here with 30 plus years of experience do not practice the basic fundamental of nursing. Maybe they should go back to square one and learn it from Potter and Perry.

This IS an International forum. This forum is for every one regardless of age, gender, color, etc. If you say something culturally insensitive in other forum, maybe we will think that you are just plain stupid or has never been out of the country. But, if you are persistently saying something that insult and disgrace other cultures, races, nationality and etc, I think something should be done by the moderators...unless the moderators themselves are not sensitive enough on this issue as well.

Well, Merry Christmas everyone (no, I'm not Christian...but I know many are here) and thank you for listening.

Oh, I am American. I am also Irish. ;) The point is that one can not make assumptions about American. Many of us do come from other places.

Technically I AM a foreigner. ;)

My culture is American. What is American culture though? It is a mixture of 'foreign' cultures. :) Everything we think and do is directly influenced by cultures from OTHER countries. That is the assumption. That we are the same. That we have no 'contact' with other cultures. That we just don't get it. That we don't like other people. It's a mighty big assumption.

'OUR' also doesn't specify who that includes. My friend recently got his citizenship. He is American. Interestingly enough he is ALSO African. Interesting that.

ETA: Of course, if you were from Manchester I wouldn't have to explain... :D HEHEHEHE J/K

Just like what Liverpooljane said, try to look back on your previous post. And I wonder who made the assumptions? You were trying to say it to an American w/c you assumed to be a foreign-educated nurse.

I just reminded you that you were talking to an American (redranger) and not a foreign-educated nurse and it was very clear you were emphasizing you are American and just reminded you that the so-called freedom of speech does not extend here as clearly stated in the TOS. Try reading it again :D

Also, if I may be blunt. What you are trying to inject in this thread has totally nothing to do w/ the thread at all anyway. Same way you did on the last thread that is closed now. It's nice to give opinions, but you have to make sure you know what is being talked about first and not hi-jack a thread you think you know what is being talked about but really don't.

And what exactly assumption I made? That you are American? You really can't make a post like that and not make an impression that you are emphasizing you are American then back pedalling that your not entirely American. And even backpedalling that there really is no American culture or custom after emphasizing it in aprevious post.

Also, I was just reminded you that you were trying to point out something to an American (redranger) and just reminded you that freedom of speech does not extend in this site per the TOS and even if this site is AMERICAN, everyone is expected to abide by the TOS whatever nationality you may be.

Also, if I may be blunt. What you are trying to inject in this thread has totally nothing to do w/ the thread at all anyway. Same way you did on the last thread that is closed now. It's nice to give opinions, but you have to make sure you know what is being talked about first and not hi-jack a thread you think you know what is being talked about but really don't.

No hijacking going on. I was just pointing out that I do understand the OP's POV despite being American. That I disagreed with it, which I was allowed to do, that there were NO TOS violation, which was affirmed by Admin AND that I was technically a foreigner as well so I am not stepping out of bounds by being in the international forum. ;)

BTW - Rude is relative which was my point. The admin are the final arbiters of rudeness and the other thread wasn't closed because of me. It was closed because someone thought people were being rude. Though, it's funny because no one was which was reaffirmed by the admin.

;)

But I have made my point so no need to post further.

I have stopped posting on the Foreign/International Philippine Board for several reasons. Initially, I felt I had some interesting perspectives to share with my favorite group of foreigners in the world, Filipinos. I am a fairly well traveled American, and am soon to be graduating from a fairly well known Philippine University. My tone and reason for posting has always been to attempt to answer a question or idea from someone else as balanced and fairly as possible, hoping to make inclusive dialogue open up. What I have noticed, is that the following happens nearly every single time:

Misunderstanding of my intention

I have taught English to non speakers in several countries. I spend my day talking to non native speakers of English, all day, every day. People seem to get the exact opposite of my intention here, and I end up wasting my time and enjoyment of this site having to explain that in fact, the opposite was intended. I already do this a lot in day to day transactions, and can only wish to escape from it when being here. The misunderstandings happen from both sides of the table, for the record.

People have axes to grind

Nearly all well intentioned posts by others (not myself, as I rarely start a thread) in this particular forum are routinely dealt with by a handful of moderators and pseudo moderators in a very abrupt fashion. The moderators can sometimes be balanced, if not a bit overworked in their delivery (answering the same questions over and over again will do that to you). There are some "pseudo moderators" who for whatever reason have taken upon themselves to be the voice of whatever particular ideology they are a part of. I can only imagine that they are frustrated with aspects of whatever the topic is, and feel the need to overtly correct others. This is often done very subtly. Repetition works wonders, and after a while, it is easy to start believing it.

Simple "vent" posts are taken out of context

Everyone has the right here to vent, I think. Venting is important for nurses (and other people, I suspect) in all aspects, school, job, etc. A vent post should be done according to TOS, and nobody should get their undies in a bunch. If I was a Filipino nurse looking for a job abroad, why can't I come on this forum and express my frustration at the struggle? Why can't people just leave it at that?

Good old trollin'

Trolling is as old as the internet itself. Trolling and troll feeding are highly enforced in every other forum that I am a part of, except for allnurses. I would recommend to the moderators that they take a hard look at trolls, and start calling spades, spades. Get a few deputy sheriffs and start cleaning shop. A good month, and it'll start looking a lot better. I have seen good sites go down due to trolls. Heck, some sites are in the business of trolling. I actually visit those places from time to time, as I find some of it entertaining. Many boards have a "flame retardant room", where people can get it off their chests and then rejoin the regular stuff when they feel like it. TOS is a bit relaxed, but no overt/ agressive stuff, of course.

I am a little surprised that there are hardly any Filipino Nurses in the Philippines on this board, most are either students, or recent graduates looking to find work/training/etc. I really think that if some of the "real working nurses" in the Philippines were here in greater numbers, this particular forum would be improved 1000%. The other forums are monitored/mentored by some great experienced nurses, and this forum in particular is sorely lacking in "Experienced" posters currently in the Philippines. No time? No internet? I don't know.

I will never leave allnurses willingly, because it is so vast and encompassing, that one single aspect such as the Philippine board would ever stop me from finding information, sharing, and being entertained. I invite some of you on this forum exclusively to venture out into the other boards. Read, lurk and enjoy. Post when you have a question, or need clarification. Learn about your profession, your specialty, your colleagues, etc.

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.

Nearly all well intentioned posts by others (not myself, as I rarely start a thread) in this particular forum are routinely dealt with by a handful of moderators and pseudo moderators in a very abrupt fashion. The moderators can sometimes be balanced, if not a bit overworked in their delivery (answering the same questions over and over again will do that to you). There are some "pseudo moderators" who for whatever reason have taken upon themselves to be the voice of whatever particular ideology they are a part of. I can only imagine that they are frustrated with aspects of whatever the topic is, and feel the need to overtly correct others. This is often done very subtly. Repetition works wonders, and after a while, it is easy to start believing it.

Simple "vent" posts are taken out of context

(Quoted post shorted for brevity).

I too wish that when someone vents about their immigration stress, or asks questions Americans would just allow them that and not highjack the thread.

We're trying to have have an approach here that we have in the main forums. Unfortunately people generalize and if we deleted, closed and banned every member that did that we'd have a mess. An example would be in the Florida forum recently someone hinted that southerners were less educated than northerners. We've seen older nurses generalize that younger nurses these days are looking for easy street and are lazy. We've seen younger nurses accuse older nurses of being old battleaxes that eat their young. We're seeing students on the ER forum rip the nurses apart on their venting threads.

Some people don't like that approach, and yet when we intervene people bitterly complain as well. We're trying to find a fair and consistent middle ground (and no being human and having many moderators consistency is hard). But we can't have one standard on the International Forum and another on the main forums.

What are people expecting? When it comes to immigration, everyone is going to have their opinion...Some people don't embrace immigrants with open arms and some people do...I think that sometimes you have to suck it up as an immigrant and take it because people are going to have an opinion on it whether you like it or not...It happens to all immigrants...It happened to my family when they migrated here and it happened to others...

But I believe that most people here are just telling it like it is....they're not sugar coating anything...right now is a hard time for the American Citizen to find work...The reality is that we're going through a very bad recession and there really is no reason to import workers when we have qualified workers here to fill the spots...I'm all for immigration because my parents came here from Cuba, but at the sametime I'm glad that retrogression is in effect.

This country has to clean up the mess that Mr. Bush put us in. Once the economy is stable and if this country needs to import nurses or other workers, then allow them to come in...it's just at this moment in time they're not needed....Retrogression is in place and it's a good thing....What would happen if the US imported every single nurse out there to come work?...then there would still be an unployment because there would be more nurses out there than jobs available.

Nobody is telling the nurses wanting to migrate here to stay there and don't ever come....they're just being told the reality of what's going on here in the US...Just because the citizen doesn't agree with the opinion of the ones trying to migrate doesn't make them rude...That's one of the great things about this nation is that you have the freedom of speech and you're going to use it...Everyone has the right to voice their opinion, the one wanting to migrate, the US Citizen, and others...If they don't agree with your point of view then learn to respect that point...and that goes for everyone...We as people have to learn to respect others opinions, we might not agree with it, but respect it.

Once retrogression is lifted if the opportunity knocks, then take it and good luck on your journey on success...For the others who don't have that opportunity, gain experience as a paid nurse (you earned your degree and should be compensated) until you're able to migrate to the US...Reality more applicants than visas available...just like in nursing school in the US over 300 applicants for 30 spots....

I have only worked w/one foreign nurse. He was educated & worked all of his 18+ yr career in another country. After he passed the US boards he worked here in ER. His prior experience was listed as "ICU" - apparently ICU in his country and ICU in the USA are vastly different- & he struggled w/simple basic concepts that our new grads have no problems with. From what he told us, one does not want to be a patient on a med-surg floor in his country- the ONLY way to get "good" care is to be in the "ICU" - which amounts to lower acuity patients than what our med-surg floors are- only by his own descriptions much much worse & w/horrible staffing. We gave him many chances to improve and learn how we do things HERE- classes, prolonged orientations, etc. Finally after a year and a half he couldn't cut it & was terminated- this was due to his skill level, lack of ability in prioritizing, poor organizational skills, & knowledge base-- skills that any nurse w/as many yrs experience as he has should have mastered. I hear that he is now working another specialty unit (not ER) at another hospital. His nursing skills were questionable, I've known CNAs w/better skills than this person- he was nervous & unsure of himself w/the most routine patients & procedures. He would panic easily and forget to assess the PATIENT not the monitors. I don't understand how admin. checks references on nurses whose only experience & education is in another country- my guess is they didn't check his! There should be some kind of closer monitoring of nurses educated in another country b/f they are "turned loose" IMO. The nursing shortage is not that critical in the area I work/live in to justify hiring a nurse w/poor skills- in fact several seasoned nurses (who only wanted part-time hours) were passed over for a position when they hired this guy- THAT is just not fair- to fellow nurses OR the patients.

To be fair. I'm pretty sure we've seen poor American nurses too. At least I have.

To be fair. I'm pretty sure we've seen poor American nurses too. At least I have.

yes, that's a fact. Whether they're given as many chances to improve is questionable. The cry of "discrimination" has many managers tolerating substandard nursing longer than should be acceptable & is not safe.

I have only worked w/one foreign nurse. He was educated & worked all of his 18+ yr career in another country. After he passed the US boards he worked here in ER. His prior experience was listed as "ICU" - apparently ICU in his country and ICU in the USA are vastly different- & he struggled w/simple basic concepts that our new grads have no problems with. From what he told us, one does not want to be a patient on a med-surg floor in his country- the ONLY way to get "good" care is to be in the "ICU" - which amounts to lower acuity patients than what our med-surg floors are- only by his own descriptions much much worse & w/horrible staffing. We gave him many chances to improve and learn how we do things HERE- classes, prolonged orientations, etc. Finally after a year and a half he couldn't cut it & was terminated- this was due to his skill level, lack of ability in prioritizing, poor organizational skills, & knowledge base-- skills that any nurse w/as many yrs experience as he has should have mastered. I hear that he is now working another specialty unit (not ER) at another hospital. His nursing skills were questionable, I've known CNAs w/better skills than this person- he was nervous & unsure of himself w/the most routine patients & procedures. He would panic easily and forget to assess the PATIENT not the monitors. I don't understand how admin. checks references on nurses whose only experience & education is in another country- my guess is they didn't check his! There should be some kind of closer monitoring of nurses educated in another country b/f they are "turned loose" IMO. The nursing shortage is not that critical in the area I work/live in to justify hiring a nurse w/poor skills- in fact several seasoned nurses (who only wanted part-time hours) were passed over for a position when they hired this guy- THAT is just not fair- to fellow nurses OR the patients.

Do you think that it could be possible that he didn't have the technology skill that most nurses here do have? Maybe he was nervous around all the high tech equipment that his country didn't have...I've done my rotation in the ER and although I didn't experience or see everything, it's pretty basic until you get into the stat situations...I find it hard to believe that a nurse with 18 years experience (I'm not doubting what you're saying) can't take a blood sugar, insert a foley cath, suction a patient, administer medications & O2, take vital signs, insert NG tubes etc...those are pretty basic..how can one not know how to do that? As a student I got to do all of those things in the ER during my rotation and the one that I felt the most uncomfortable with was the insertion of the NG tube...but with my experienced Clinical Instructor and the RN there it made it easier for me...But I'm just the student, the RN with 18 years experience should have mastered (as you stated) this already.....

I agree with your statement regarding monitoring a foreign grad nurse....What they do in their country might not be what is done in the US...I honestly believe that they should have not only a few years experience under their belt, but they should be required to take a transition course that would transition them to nursing here. They should have their skills assessed before taking the NCLEX to make sure that their skill level is that of what's expected and practiced here in the US...I know that they have English exams that they must pass...I'd really have to see that exam but I can almost guess that those English exams aren't at the college level....and it shows because foreign grads that I've come across have passed those exams and have poor English skills...As a graduate of the California State University System, we had to pass several college English exams before we were able to graduate with our prospective degrees, and that last college English focused on our major...It's pretty intense and it was a very hard course and I don't even know how I passed sometimes...But foreign grads should be made to pass classes equivalent to that of the CSU (for California, can differ in other states) English courses...You have to be able to know how to read and write at the college level because communication is a very important factor in nursing...not just skill....

To be fair. I'm pretty sure we've seen poor American nurses too. At least I have.

I have to agree with that statement...There are poorly educated American Nurses and I've worked with them...and some with experience and I still question their ability and prefer not to be paired with them....

Specializes in intensive care, recovery, anesthetics.
I have only worked w/one foreign nurse. He was educated & worked all of his 18+ yr career in another country. After he passed the US boards he worked here in ER. His prior experience was listed as "ICU" - apparently ICU in his country and ICU in the USA are vastly different- & he struggled w/simple basic concepts that our new grads have no problems with. From what he told us, one does not want to be a patient on a med-surg floor in his country- the ONLY way to get "good" care is to be in the "ICU" - which amounts to lower acuity patients than what our med-surg floors are- only by his own descriptions much much worse & w/horrible staffing. We gave him many chances to improve and learn how we do things HERE- classes, prolonged orientations, etc. Finally after a year and a half he couldn't cut it & was terminated- this was due to his skill level, lack of ability in prioritizing, poor organizational skills, & knowledge base-- skills that any nurse w/as many yrs experience as he has should have mastered. I hear that he is now working another specialty unit (not ER) at another hospital. His nursing skills were questionable, I've known CNAs w/better skills than this person- he was nervous & unsure of himself w/the most routine patients & procedures. He would panic easily and forget to assess the PATIENT not the monitors. I don't understand how admin. checks references on nurses whose only experience & education is in another country- my guess is they didn't check his! There should be some kind of closer monitoring of nurses educated in another country b/f they are "turned loose" IMO. The nursing shortage is not that critical in the area I work/live in to justify hiring a nurse w/poor skills- in fact several seasoned nurses (who only wanted part-time hours) were passed over for a position when they hired this guy- THAT is just not fair- to fellow nurses OR the patients.

It sounds that this guy is a bad/unqualified nurse, I doubt that it has sth to do with him being a foreigner, especially since he was offered prolonged orientation.

And there is normally is close monitoring, and normally you have to do quite an assessment that starts prior to interview, during interview and after. Depends of course on the employer.

5cats

Specializes in intensive care, recovery, anesthetics.
Do you think that it could be possible that he didn't have the technology skill that most nurses here do have? Maybe he was nervous around all the high tech equipment that his country didn't have...I've done my rotation in the ER and although I didn't experience or see everything, it's pretty basic until you get into the stat situations...I find it hard to believe that a nurse with 18 years experience (I'm not doubting what you're saying) can't take a blood sugar, insert a foley cath, suction a patient, administer medications & O2, take vital signs, insert NG tubes etc...those are pretty basic..how can one not know how to do that? As a student I got to do all of those things in the ER during my rotation and the one that I felt the most uncomfortable with was the insertion of the NG tube...but with my experienced Clinical Instructor and the RN there it made it easier for me...But I'm just the student, the RN with 18 years experience should have mastered (as you stated) this already.....

I agree with your statement regarding monitoring a foreign grad nurse....What they do in their country might not be what is done in the US...I honestly believe that they should have not only a few years experience under their belt, but they should be required to take a transition course that would transition them to nursing here. They should have their skills assessed before taking the NCLEX to make sure that their skill level is that of what's expected and practiced here in the US...I know that they have English exams that they must pass...I'd really have to see that exam but I can almost guess that those English exams aren't at the college level....and it shows because foreign grads that I've come across have passed those exams and have poor English skills...As a graduate of the California State University System, we had to pass several college English exams before we were able to graduate with our prospective degrees, and that last college English focused on our major...It's pretty intense and it was a very hard course and I don't even know how I passed sometimes...But foreign grads should be made to pass classes equivalent to that of the CSU (for California, can differ in other states) English courses...You have to be able to know how to read and write at the college level because communication is a very important factor in nursing...not just skill....

The english exams actually are all at university level, it just depends on wich passing level/degree is accepted. In Canada for instance your speaking passing score for TOEFL ibt is 28 points out of 29 max. Elsewhere they accept 26 or so. With IELTS passing scores start allready at 6.5 max would be 9, so that would be significantly lower.

5cats

5cats

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