To Unionize or Not To Unionize: Questions that every nurse should ask themselves

forrester · Apr 21, 2008

So you think they wouldn't be taking a pay cut starting out fresh at a UNION hospital... Think again.. they would be starting at the bottom of the heap there too. Come on I've been a nurse too long to believe that.. How about the bad side of being in a union?.. Having to go out on strike when the majority of your peers don't want to sign the new contract.. And you can go thru this every few years... Having people tell me what I should want and losing friendships when you can't agree.. Lack of communication between management and staff, especially during bargaining periods and contract negotiations... I'll say it again.. Educated professionals offering a needed skill set in a time of shortage do not need unions![/quote]
This opens up a whole series of questions.
Are we a profession? Seems to me every profession works diligently to protect itself. It does this thru political awareness, being an active participant in the political agenda, its prestige as an expert in its domain of practice, and its ability to influence the political process.
Nursing scores very low in each of these categories.
In a free market system, you would be quite right about the demand vs supply argument. Too bad healthcare isn't a free market system. Consequently, with no real leadership of its own to protect it, nursing is subject to abuse by them that can.
If you see yourself as only "a" practitioner, than you hardly need a union or anything else to worry about you.
If you truly see yourself as a member of a profession, than there is an accompanying responsibility to protect that profession. We can only do that through our numbers.
We need each other.

jeolsz · Apr 21, 2008

But ALL of us owe our primary identification to the bedside nurse. That is the essence of what it means to be a nurse. direct responsibility and direct accountability for the care of another human being. To be the advocate for this "other" is the noblist of missions.
That said, it seems to me that the benchmark we all ought to use for the health of nursing is/are the conditions these bedside nurses have to work under. I think most of us can agree that, in many areas, these nurses are being abused. And let's be frank, it's in the interest of profits,
I have to say, some of the toughest people I know are bedside nurses. They have earned it thru the years of intense stress of working with the most difficult of patients and nastiest of supervisors. I worked at the bedside for over 20 years, before leaving for my present case management position. But nothing stressed me out more than the union mentality. I lost friendships and eventually left because of it.
But I would not call these nurses abused. Nursing is a tough job, no doubt.. But name me another job that you can have, that pays as much as it does for a minimum of 2 years of secondary education, and offers as many options and opportunities as nursing! And to be honest, I went into nursing for these very reasons.

forrester · Apr 21, 2008

But ALL of us owe our primary identification to the bedside nurse. That is the essence of what it means to be a nurse. direct responsibility and direct accountability for the care of another human being. To be the advocate for this "other" is the noblist of missions.
That said, it seems to me that the benchmark we all ought to use for the health of nursing is/are the conditions these bedside nurses have to work under. I think most of us can agree that, in many areas, these nurses are being abused. And let's be frank, it's in the interest of profits,
I have to say, some of the toughest people I know are bedside nurses. They have earned it thru the years of intense stress of working with the most difficult of patients and nastiest of supervisors. I worked at the bedside for over 20 years, before leaving for my present case management position. But nothing stressed me out more than the union mentality. I lost friendships and eventually left because of it.
But I would not call these nurses abused. Nursing is a tough job, no doubt.. But name me another job that you can have, that pays as much as it does for a minimum of 2 years of secondary education, and offers as many options and opportunities as nursing! And to be honest, I went into nursing for these very reasons.
I went into nursing many, many years ago, and pay was not the reason.
It IS much better today in #'s, but when you factor in inflation, nursing has lost ground since the 1970's.
Today, the cost of living is spiraling once again, and the standard 3% most nurses get just doesn't cut it. With no real protection in place, tough times for the industry (most of it their own doing by the way), nursing is hardly in a position to affect positive change.
This new group out of California offers real hope. They are the only ones focused on improving the conditions for the bedside nurse. Massacheusett's is also moving along these lines.
Nursing needs political teeth, we have to stop trying to gum our agenda into political reality.

jeolsz · Apr 21, 2008

I went into nursing many, many years ago, and pay was not the reason.
It IS much better today in #'s, but when you factor in inflation, nursing has lost ground since the 1970's.
In 1981 my starting salary was about $25,000 annually.. now I make over $80,000 ( That's with out the help of a union). I can't complain about that, considering I never went beyond a BS in Nursing.

gerry79 · Apr 21, 2008

On the practical benefits of unionizing, there is plenty of data out there, including on the Dept of Labor website, on the higher wages for unionized workers, much of it quoted higher up this thread.
A few personal observations: My hospital is in a relatively small town in Northern California, far enough from the unionized centers of the Bay Area that our management didn't really have to match salaries - a different market. So, in 2000, when we started to organize with CNA, my salary at the top of the scale was 24.96 an hour. 8 years later, it's now almost double that. We're still behind the bay area, but we've closed the gap considerably. Now a part of that increase is from market forces and inflation, but I'd be curious if any non-union nurses, especially in non-union states, have seen their salary double in that time? Not from what I hear. If I were still working full-time, I'd be over 100,000 a year. The dues are a drop in the bucket next to what I've gained.
The other observation is that nearly all the travel nurses I meet in California are from non-union, "right to work for less" states. The reason they are willing to leave their homes and families and live in a motel room is that the salaries and benefits where they live are so lousy. Not to mention the horror stories they tell of their workloads - 4 ICU patients?
Not to even mention the satisfaction of being part of an organization that is going to change the face of healthcare in America.

I work at a non union hospital in Massachusetts and although my pay has not doubled, it has increased by $7.00/hr in a year. We work in close proximity to a union hospital and benefit greatly from there labor disputes (when they renegotiate there contract we get a market adjustment based on there new contract). We seem to get the benefit of the union without having one.

As for unions, look at the American auto industry and see how the union basically destroyed the big three (high labor costs, poor quality of work). I am not against unions as we all know management cares only about the bottom line at the workers expense, but unions also fail there workers.

Chico David, BSN, RN · Apr 21, 2008

I work at a non union hospital in Massachusetts and although my pay has not doubled, it has increased by $7.00/hr in a year. We work in close proximity to a union hospital and benefit greatly from there labor disputes (when they renegotiate there contract we get a market adjustment based on there new contract). We seem to get the benefit of the union without having one.
As for unions, look at the American auto industry and see how the union basically destroyed the big three (high labor costs, poor quality of work). I am not against unions as we all know management cares only about the bottom line at the workers expense, but unions also fail there workers.

I would disagree strongly with the characterization of the role of unions in the auto industry. The American auto industry has failed for a variety of reasons, chief among them failure to make the cars that people want today and tomorrow and continuing determination to make the cars they wanted yesterday. Also a failure to modernize production methods and having to compete with automakers in countries where everyone has healthcare through a government provided program that spreads the cost across the whole society rather than putting them just on the employer.

The narrative that unions caused that failure has become accepted through repetition, but the facts don't support it.

Also, it's nice that nurses in non-union hospitals can benefit from the hard work and sacrifice of their sisters and brothers in unions, but not something to be particularly proud of.

nicurn001 · Apr 21, 2008

I work at a non union hospital in Massachusetts and although my pay has not doubled, it has increased by $7.00/hr in a year. We work in close proximity to a union hospital and benefit greatly from there labor disputes (when they renegotiate there contract we get a market adjustment based on there new contract). We seem to get the benefit of the union without having one.
As for unions, look at the American auto industry and see how the union basically destroyed the big three (high labor costs, poor quality of work). I am not against unions as we all know management cares only about the bottom line at the workers expense, but unions also fail there workers.

This appears to be the attitude of a lot of people , they are prepared to accept the benefits of unionization , without paying for it ( ie. matching raises), then blame the unions for management failures , when through poor negotiations skills and poor decision making management had the major responsibility for the declines in their ventures.

It is convenient to blame unions for business failures , but how can this continue to be done when the majority of businesses are not unionized!

forrester · Apr 22, 2008

This appears to be the attitude of a lot of people , they are prepared to accept the benefits of unionization , without paying for it ( ie. matching raises), then blame the unions for management failures , when through poor negotiations skills and poor decision making management had the major responsibility for the declines in their ventures.
It is convenient to blame unions for business failures , but how can this continue to be done when the majority of businesses are not unionized!

Unions can and do suffer from 1 fatal flaw, but its a flaw common to any organization, business, government, or religion for that matter - hubris

When the organization grows and becomes an entity unto itself, it begins to lose the focus of its origin.

That's why we need a bedside nursing organization, run by bedside nurses. I know nursing taught me many things about life, and humility was one of the most important. Work in an ICU or ER long enough, and you can't help but be affected by it all.

We have a unique opportunity in nursing to "seize the bull" (or should I say bull....) by the horns and assume the leadership position in healthcare that is our destiny.

Nursing was made to do this.

We can trruly become the patient, community, and nation healthcare advocates that we should be.

But we can only do it together.

And having an effective organization clearly focused on our goals is a great start.

This new group deserves our attention...and support until proven otherwise.

Remember, they've actually done something:yeah:

HM2VikingRN, RN · Apr 22, 2008

all of y'all seem to be contradicting yourselves. On one side you want what is better for you (better hours, more money, more benefits) and on the other side you want better ratios, cheaper healthcare, universal healthcare.
I don't want to get too much into universal healthcare. If you want to wait in line for your cabg, go ahead. here's an interesting article:
http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010374
I don't see most nurses fighting for just better ratios. they want more money too. How does that work in a world of decreasing insurance payouts? How about giving up some of your raises in exchange for more staff? I bet everyone of you wouldn't agree to that. I think the evils of unions are very apparent in the auto and airline industry. Guaranteed pension are having to be bailed out by the gov't (how much longer do you think that will last?), healthcare cost for gm= $1500 dollars per car. These industries made contracts that were feasible when things were good (1980's and 90's) but now don't work. But when they try to renegotiate with the unions, they strike. Unionized businesses don't do well with market change (ask anyone in the steel industry in pittsburg). What will happen when hospitals can't afford to pay RN's 50$ dollars an hour? Patients won't get admitted, and can't get the care they need. In this time of economic downturn, the sure is a lot of unhappy nurses looking for more, while the rest of the country is happy just to keep their jobs. I agree there are some mismanaged hospitals, but I think unions are more bad than good.
Interesting thing in my hospital. RN's are looking into unionizing. This is after 3 survey raises and a dramatic increase in benefits since I've been here in 2004. I asked one RN what the problem was. He said our hospital was low paying for the area. I asked him why he didn't move to one of the "better" paying hospitals and his answer was, "just too lazy I guess". ICU RN's have 1-2 patients here (only seen 3 patients when there was a code blue and no nurse available), Step down has 2-3 patients, and I think the worst is med/ surg and they have teams (RN/LVN) that have 8. This hospital doesn't employ many CNA's (nurse manager decisions). I think with good teamwork this is very reasonable. mgmt offers bonuses on top of overtime during peak times and I have not seen ONE instance of mgmt intentionally trying to screw the staff. Why they feel the need to unionize is really beyond my grasp. They complain about workload for HOURS around the nurses station.
I think the problem with healthcare is the same problem that the whole country has. We don't want to work for our money. We want more money. But we don't want to pay for the increased prices our raises are going to produce.
I for one am curious to see what our salaries are going to be like once national healthcare takes over. I bet everyone of you will have to take a paycut.
I am a R.T. about to graduate ASN.

Same old fear mongering........PNHP proposals do not call for paycuts except for administrative fees.......The data actually shows that the US has greater waiting times than France, AUS, Ger and the UK. Seee the Commonwealth fund website for further information...

States with strong traditions of organized labor have better living standards overall AEB better school graduation rates and health outcome data...

In Solidarity......

HM2VikingRN, RN · Apr 22, 2008

I will retire with 2.2 % of my salary per year worked with the 3 highest earned years averaged compare that to social security or a non-defined benefit plan

2.5% of salary per year worked plus paid health insurance at age 55...

Another example of the union premium...

HM2VikingRN, RN · Apr 22, 2008

Isn't it interesting that the employees of an insurance company have it so good, while the insurance companies with their predatory practices are making it ever more difficult for those who receive and provide the actual care to survive at all. Their own folks get the benefits they are making it impossible for everyone else to have. I've worked for one hospital for 27 years and have no interest in changing jobs every time the whim of some idiot administrator makes things unbearable. So we organized. Now all the administrators who drove us to organize are gone - and we're still here.

The presence of a union tends to improve the quality of management and leadership within an organization.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Apr 22, 2008

So you think they wouldn't be taking a pay cut starting out fresh at a UNION hospital... Think again.. they would be starting at the bottom of the heap there too. Come on I've been a nurse too long to believe that.. How about the bad side of being in a union?.. Having to go out on strike when the majority of your peers don't want to sign the new contract.. And you can go thru this every few years... Having people tell me what I should want and losing friendships when you can't agree.. Lack of communication between management and staff, especially during bargaining periods and contract negotiations... I'll say it again.. Educated professionals offering a needed skill set in a time of shortage do not need unions!

Why do businesses belong to the Chamber of Commerce, Doctors AMA, NFIB? All of these are collective oganizations designed to adance the common interests of the owners.

As Jim Hightower says "everybody does better when everybody does better"