To Unionize or Not To Unionize: Questions that every nurse should ask themselves

Nurses Union

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came across this while link hopping tonight...

thought provoking article...

to unionize or not to unionize:

questions that every nurse should ask themselves

all of y'all seem to be contradicting yourselves. On one side you want what is better for you (better hours, more money, more benefits) and on the other side you want better ratios, cheaper healthcare, universal healthcare.

I don't want to get too much into universal healthcare. If you want to wait in line for your cabg, go ahead. here's an interesting article:

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010374

I don't see most nurses fighting for just better ratios. they want more money too. How does that work in a world of decreasing insurance payouts? How about giving up some of your raises in exchange for more staff? I bet everyone of you wouldn't agree to that. I think the evils of unions are very apparent in the auto and airline industry. Guaranteed pension are having to be bailed out by the gov't (how much longer do you think that will last?), healthcare cost for gm= $1500 dollars per car. These industries made contracts that were feasible when things were good (1980's and 90's) but now don't work. But when they try to renegotiate with the unions, they strike. Unionized businesses don't do well with market change (ask anyone in the steel industry in pittsburg). What will happen when hospitals can't afford to pay RN's 50$ dollars an hour? Patients won't get admitted, and can't get the care they need. In this time of economic downturn, the sure is a lot of unhappy nurses looking for more, while the rest of the country is happy just to keep their jobs. I agree there are some mismanaged hospitals, but I think unions are more bad than good.

Interesting thing in my hospital. RN's are looking into unionizing. This is after 3 survey raises and a dramatic increase in benefits since I've been here in 2004. I asked one RN what the problem was. He said our hospital was low paying for the area. I asked him why he didn't move to one of the "better" paying hospitals and his answer was, "just too lazy I guess". ICU RN's have 1-2 patients here (only seen 3 patients when there was a code blue and no nurse available), Step down has 2-3 patients, and I think the worst is med/ surg and they have teams (RN/LVN) that have 8. This hospital doesn't employ many CNA's (nurse manager decisions). I think with good teamwork this is very reasonable. mgmt offers bonuses on top of overtime during peak times and I have not seen ONE instance of mgmt intentionally trying to screw the staff. Why they feel the need to unionize is really beyond my grasp. They complain about workload for HOURS around the nurses station.

I think the problem with healthcare is the same problem that the whole country has. We don't want to work for our money. We want more money. But we don't want to pay for the increased prices our raises are going to produce.

I for one am curious to see what our salaries are going to be like once national healthcare takes over. I bet everyone of you will have to take a paycut.

I am a R.T. about to graduate ASN.

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all of y'all seem to be contradicting yourselves. On one side you want what is better for you (better hours, more money, more benefits) and on the other side you want better ratios, cheaper healthcare, universal healthcare.

I don't want to get too much into universal healthcare. If you want to wait in line for your cabg, go ahead. here's an interesting article:

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010374

I don't see most nurses fighting for just better ratios. they want more money too. How does that work in a world of decreasing insurance payouts? How about giving up some of your raises in exchange for more staff? I bet everyone of you wouldn't agree to that. I think the evils of unions are very apparent in the auto and airline industry. Guaranteed pension are having to be bailed out by the gov't (how much longer do you think that will last?), healthcare cost for gm= $1500 dollars per car. These industries made contracts that were feasible when things were good (1980's and 90's) but now don't work. But when they try to renegotiate with the unions, they strike. Unionized businesses don't do well with market change (ask anyone in the steel industry in pittsburg). What will happen when hospitals can't afford to pay RN's 50$ dollars an hour? Patients won't get admitted, and can't get the care they need. In this time of economic downturn, the sure is a lot of unhappy nurses looking for more, while the rest of the country is happy just to keep their jobs. I agree there are some mismanaged hospitals, but I think unions are more bad than good.

Interesting thing in my hospital. RN's are looking into unionizing. This is after 3 survey raises and a dramatic increase in benefits since I've been here in 2004. I asked one RN what the problem was. He said our hospital was low paying for the area. I asked him why he didn't move to one of the "better" paying hospitals and his answer was, "just too lazy I guess". ICU RN's have 1-2 patients here (only seen 3 patients when there was a code blue and no nurse available), Step down has 2-3 patients, and I think the worst is med/ surg and they have teams (RN/LVN) that have 8. This hospital doesn't employ many CNA's (nurse manager decisions). I think with good teamwork this is very reasonable. mgmt offers bonuses on top of overtime during peak times and I have not seen ONE instance of mgmt intentionally trying to screw the staff. Why they feel the need to unionize is really beyond my grasp. They complain about workload for HOURS around the nurses station.

I think the problem with healthcare is the same problem that the whole country has. We don't want to work for our money. We want more money. But we don't want to pay for the increased prices our raises are going to produce.

I for one am curious to see what our salaries are going to be like once national healthcare takes over. I bet everyone of you will have to take a paycut.

I am a R.T. about to graduate ASN.

You make some good points. I would like to point out that the insurance industry keeps 30% of our health care dollars without providing any health care. That's billions of dollars that could come back into the system. If we converted to a sensible electronic paperless system coupled with a single set of 'paperwork' needed for reimbursement, that too would put billions of dollars back to be available to pay for actual care of actual patients.

Single payer universal health care (HR 676) is the answer to most of our health care problems and would provide enough money into the system if we just keep paying what we are already paying into the health insurance companies. AND everybody would be able to go to their doctor of choice and their hospital of choice.

I will grant you there is no room for greed. That is exactly why the private insurers must be cut out of our health care system.

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Specializes in ER, ICU, Administration (briefly).
You make some good points. I would like to point out that the insurance industry keeps 30% of our health care dollars without providing any health care. That's billions of dollars that could come back into the system. If we converted to a sensible electronic paperless system coupled with a single set of 'paperwork' needed for reimbursement, that too would put billions of dollars back to be available to pay for actual care of actual patients.

Single payer universal health care (HR 676) is the answer to most of our health care problems and would provide enough money into the system if we just keep paying what we are already paying into the health insurance companies. AND everybody would be able to go to their doctor of choice and their hospital of choice.

I will grant you there is no room for greed. That is exactly why the private insurers must be cut out of our health care system.

A single payer system will not work any better than our current system, except it will open up healthcare costs directly to the taxpayer. That will inevitably mean 30 to 40% tax rates as the costs of medical care continue to spiral up.

The problem is not with the insurance system. The problem is with an outdated delivery system. This cart is broken and has been for some time. Putting bigger and bigger animals in front of the cart does nothing to fix it.

For profit healthcare places too many demands on the healthcare dollar. Doc's want their money. Administrative salaries have skyrocketed since the 1980's. (C'mon, 3million dollars a year to run a hospital???...with bonuses???). Shareholders expect their returns.

Big pharm rips us off on drug prices because the competitive system cannot negotiate en masse. Same thing applies to medical equipment.

Every single socialized system in the world has some form of rationing. It is typically based on age. Over 75, no dialysis, no CABG, in some countries, no ICU.

Most countries also have a 2 tiered system, with the wealthy able to go to private hospitals and get what they want...when they want it.

A taxi driver in Tokyo makes more than a neurosurgeon.

Diagnostic equipment is "strategically" located in most of these countries.

Many rural areas are hours away from any quality facilities.

I must say, in studying these foreign systems, Argentina had a brilliant concept in their state system. Chief nursing officers were appointed to 5 year terms by regional nursing boards. They then had to re-apply and compete with anyone else interested in the job.

Think about it. It pulls nursing out from under the adminsitrative thumb. If the administration doesn't like the way the CNO is working, they too must appeal to the board.

Imagine, actual nursing administrators instead of the traitors we have now.:rolleyes:

There is plenty to learn from studying systems in other countries, but the most important thing we can learn from is their mistakes and limitations.

Americans won't pay for it with taxes. Push them too far and they will demand real change.

We need to be at the table when these changes are planned, as they are right now. Only a semi-cohesive nursing field can stand up to the very powerful lobbies that currently control the industry. The CNA/NNOC holds out that hope for us.

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A long time ago I worked in a hospital that brought in a union in hopes of better wages and benefits for the RN's that were working there. What I found was people I had been working with for years, taking sides against each other, which left a bad taste in my mouth. I always felt that as a professional, I had knowledge and skills that I could offer at many health care facilities and I didn't need someone else looking after my best interests. I felt the Union got in the way of many opportunities because of seniority ( a nurse would get the job not based on the quality of his/her work, but on the length of time employed). I felt a strain between employee and management and I also didn't want to be told to go out and strike, when I wasn't convinced of what the union was fighting for. I always felt that if I didn't like where I was working, I could go elsewhere and I still feel the same today. If I didn't have anything to offer and had no job skills or education, unions might help, but with being an educated profesional, I don't feel I need that kind of help.

So you think the answer to the problem is just to leave and work elsewhere?

Why not improve the conditions were you currently work so you can stay. Yes as nuses we can have a new job tomorrow but why should we have to?

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question please! I was told today, by fellow nurses that since AZ is a "right to work" state that unions here have no "teeth". We can be fired for "no reason". I was also told that a certain hospital "chain" told it's nurses in no uncertain terms that they would be fired for "talking to union members, talking about unions, distributing info about unions" "at the drop of a hat". Isn't this illegal? Even in a right to work state? I guess they can make up some sort of excuse to fire a nurse, but isn't it illegal to fire a nurse related to union organizing activities? One nurse opioned that the reason this chain is so big in AZ is because we ARE a "right to work" state, and therefore a very weak union state.

opinions please!!!!

Yes these activities are illigal. However ubder the current dministration the rules have little impact. In the late 50's 1 in 3 workers were in the union. Now it is 1 in 8. This is why we need to band together organize and increase our strength.

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"Recent studies suggest that there is less economic mobility in the United States than has long been presumed. The last thirty years has seen a considerable drop-off in median household income growth compared to earlier generations. And, by some measurements, we are actually a less mobile society than many other nations, including Canada, France, Germany and most Scandinavian countries. This challenges the notion of America as the land of opportunity. "

I won't debate the fact that there is probably less income growth, however I will challange the statement that American may not be the land of opportunity. Free will and the basic freedoms listed in the constitution assures me that there is plenty of opportunity in America.. but I do see alot of "victims" and poor choices in regards to economic growth in individuals. I believe the "I want it all and I want it now" philosophy is alive and well in America which translates into increased debt and less savings. Time will only tell how Americans will fare.. but I'm getting off topic.

How can you not feel apathy and boredom, when you know no matter how hard you work, it is not a measurement that is used when competing for a specific job.. An example might be the nurse who has 10 years of experience and expertise in critical care, but has only worked in the hospital for 3 years, never calling in sick and persues continuing education in the related field.. goes up against a nurse with only 4 yrs experience, has repeatedly called in sick but has worked for the hospital 3 years and 2 months.. Both want the day shift in critical care.. In a union hospital the person with the most seniority gets the job.. This leaves no insentive to improve yourself or be accountable.

Because we have a term in our contract called demonstratively more qualified. If you can prove you have better education and qualifications that trunps senority'

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we can agree to disagree. having been the victim of a mobbing instituted by a manager and her crony i have a much different experience base to draw from in forming my opinion about the value of unions. namecalling from either side on this issue does very little to advance the interests of nursing.

the goals of most social democrats are:

in general, contemporary social democrats support[citation needed]:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/social_democracy

my experience and observation tells me that the average nurse in an organized labor maket has better wages, benefits and pension coverage. (did you know that defined benefit pensions (supported by unions) have a better rate of return to the worker than defined contribution plans (supported by business.) see the epi.org website for details.

i will retire with 2.2 % of my salary per year worked with the 3 highest earned years averaged compare that to social security or a non-defined benefit plan

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I will retire with 2.2 % of my salary per year worked with the 3 highest earned years averaged compare that to social security or a non-defined benefit plan

Why do you need a union for that?.. I have been working for a health insurance corporation for 10 years and I'll retire with a pension and a 401K that my employer contributes well to every year. I have access to great benefits and all different nursing positions that allow me to work from the comfort of my home. Oh yeah, and a great salary to boot! All this without a union! I got this job with a four year college degree, a NJ nursing license and plenty of hospital experience....But not a union in sight... Choices, that's what matters in life, not what other people think is good for me.

And yes, if you don't like what's happening at your job, you always have the opportunity to change it or leave.. If there is enough turnover at your place of employment, I think management will get the message!

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Why do you need a union for that?.. I have been working for a health insurance corporation for 10 years and I'll retire with a pension and a 401K that my employer contributes well to every year. I have access to great benefits and all different nursing positions that allow me to work from the comfort of my home. Oh yeah, and a great salary to boot! All this without a union! I got this job with a four year college degree, a NJ nursing license and plenty of hospital experience....But not a union in sight... Choices, that's what matters in life, not what other people think is good for me.

And yes, if you don't like what's happening at your job, you always have the opportunity to change it or leave.. If there is enough turnover at your place of employment, I think management will get the message!

Well good for you but that is not always the case. We are closing a ODMH hospital in Dayton OHio. the nurses who do not want to transfer around the state are taking $3-$5 dolar an hour cuts to go into the non-union hospitals. Th enurses at CHP after 30 years of service pensions amount to a few hundred dollars. No thanks, I'll keep my defined benefit retirement anytime.

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Why do you need a union for that?.. I have been working for a health insurance corporation for 10 years and I'll retire with a pension and a 401K that my employer contributes well to every year. I have access to great benefits and all different nursing positions that allow me to work from the comfort of my home. Oh yeah, and a great salary to boot! All this without a union! I got this job with a four year college degree, a NJ nursing license and plenty of hospital experience....But not a union in sight... Choices, that's what matters in life, not what other people think is good for me.

And yes, if you don't like what's happening at your job, you always have the opportunity to change it or leave.. If there is enough turnover at your place of employment, I think management will get the message!

Isn't it interesting that the employees of an insurance company have it so good, while the insurance companies with their predatory practices are making it ever more difficult for those who receive and provide the actual care to survive at all. Their own folks get the benefits they are making it impossible for everyone else to have. I've worked for one hospital for 27 years and have no interest in changing jobs every time the whim of some idiot administrator makes things unbearable. So we organized. Now all the administrators who drove us to organize are gone - and we're still here.

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Specializes in ER, ICU, Administration (briefly).

It seems to me that one of the great problems we have in nursing is our tremendous diversity.

Some of us work in education, some in drug sales. Some in administration, some in, well, you get the idea.:nurse:

But ALL of us owe our primary identification to the bedside nurse. That is the essence of what it means to be a nurse. direct responsibility and direct accountability for the care of another human being. To be the advocate for this "other" is the noblist of missions.

That said, it seems to me that the benchmark we all ought to use for the health of nursing is/are the conditions these bedside nurses have to work under. I think most of us can agree that, in many areas, these nurses are being abused. And let's be frank, it's in the interest of profits,

This is simply wrong.:nono:

Our only real political strength is in our numbers. We need each other to contribute to a common goal, the health of our profession. We have been fractured too long. Political empowerment is in ALL of our interests, because that is the only way we can truly protect our patients.

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Well good for you but that is not always the case. We are closing a ODMH hospital in Dayton OHio. the nurses who do not want to transfer around the state are taking $3-$5 dolar an hour cuts to go into the non-union hospitals. Th enurses at CHP after 30 years of service pensions amount to a few hundred dollars. No thanks, I'll keep my defined benefit retirement anytime.

So you think they wouldn't be taking a pay cut starting out fresh at a UNION hospital... Think again.. they would be starting at the bottom of the heap there too. Come on I've been a nurse too long to believe that.. How about the bad side of being in a union?.. Having to go out on strike when the majority of your peers don't want to sign the new contract.. And you can go thru this every few years... Having people tell me what I should want and losing friendships when you can't agree.. Lack of communication between management and staff, especially during bargaining periods and contract negotiations... I'll say it again.. Educated professionals offering a needed skill set in a time of shortage do not need unions!

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