To Unionize or Not To Unionize: Questions that every nurse should ask themselves

HM2VikingRN, RN · Mar 1, 2008

Another study that elucidates the union premium:

Unions and Upward Mobility for Low-Wage Workers
August 2007, John Schmitt, Margy Waller, Shawn Fremstad and Ben Zipperer
This report analyzes 15 of the lowest paying occupations in the United States and finds that unionized workers earn about 16% more than their non-unionized counterparts. Unionized workers in the same industries are also 25 percentage points more likely to have health insurance or a pension plan.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/UnionsandUpwardMobility.pdf

mobilsurgrn · Mar 8, 2008

Although it is true that only about 20 percent of American workers are in unions, that 20 percent sets the standards across the board in salaries, benefits and working conditions. If you are making a decent salary in a non-union company, you owe that to the unions.

So that 20% is obviously smarter than the other 80%..

Where's the data? Which union sets the standard for what I make?

Is there a study that shows that union nurses have better compensation (salary, benefits) after subtracting dues, than non union? Or research that shows that union nurses are more satisfied with their jobs than the overwhelming majority of non-union nurses? How about retention? Do union nurses stay in their jobs longer than non-union? Are union nurses better trained (meaning do they attend CE and attain certification at higher rates?)

If this were true unions could easily double their memberships in a few years. I think we would all agree that new members are the life blood (read DUES) of unions. What could a study like this cost, maybe $1-2 million? I think that may be a very liberal estimate.

So, if any of these notions were even possible, the CNA (AFL-CIO), UAN, NYSNA, and SEIU, who combined, collected over $100 million from nurses last year would be tripping over themselves to publish those studies, wouldn't they?

HM2VikingRN, RN · Mar 8, 2008

The record speaks for itself in pensions and better health care alone. (Union hospitals also tend to deliver better care overall.)

sharona97, BSN, RN · Mar 31, 2008

The record speaks for itself in pensions and better health care alone. (Union hospitals also tend to deliver better care overall.)

Well said. And so true.

Sharona

Chico David, BSN, RN · Mar 31, 2008

On the practical benefits of unionizing, there is plenty of data out there, including on the Dept of Labor website, on the higher wages for unionized workers, much of it quoted higher up this thread.

A few personal observations: My hospital is in a relatively small town in Northern California, far enough from the unionized centers of the Bay Area that our management didn't really have to match salaries - a different market. So, in 2000, when we started to organize with CNA, my salary at the top of the scale was 24.96 an hour. 8 years later, it's now almost double that. We're still behind the bay area, but we've closed the gap considerably. Now a part of that increase is from market forces and inflation, but I'd be curious if any non-union nurses, especially in non-union states, have seen their salary double in that time? Not from what I hear. If I were still working full-time, I'd be over 100,000 a year. The dues are a drop in the bucket next to what I've gained.

The other observation is that nearly all the travel nurses I meet in California are from non-union, "right to work for less" states. The reason they are willing to leave their homes and families and live in a motel room is that the salaries and benefits where they live are so lousy. Not to mention the horror stories they tell of their workloads - 4 ICU patients?

Not to even mention the satisfaction of being part of an organization that is going to change the face of healthcare in America.

Ludlow · Mar 31, 2008

A study was done and published in the Journal of Nursing Administration that found that patients had better outcomes at unionized hospitals. There's a summary of the article at http://www.massnurses.org/News/2002/002004/study.htm

I've worked both without and with and I'd never go back to without. The question is, though, are you uniting to have the power to better advocate for your patients or are you just uniting with a union that wants to partner with the boss and go along to get along.

I joined CNA because I wanted to work with a union that had a vision to improve health care for patients and nurses alike and had a plan for getting there.

Hence, because of the vision and hard work of the nurses in CNA we have Nurse to Patient ratios in California. We have a Whistle Blower law so that if you know the hospital is harming patients you can speak up to protect patients without the fear of losing your job. We have meals and breaks here in California that amount to 1/2 hour lunch and a 15 minute break for every 4 hours worked. (I work 12 hours so I get a total of 75 min that I take as 45 min lunch and 30 min break). And when I'm gone another nurse is watching my patients who has no more patients than the ratios law allows (I'm in ICU so that is no more than 2). You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see how nurses are more rested and patients are safer.

Ah yes, unions are the way to go and CNA/NNOC is the best union to go with.

Ludlow · Mar 31, 2008

question please! I was told today, by fellow nurses that since AZ is a "right to work" state that unions here have no "teeth". We can be fired for "no reason". I was also told that a certain hospital "chain" told it's nurses in no uncertain terms that they would be fired for "talking to union members, talking about unions, distributing info about unions" "at the drop of a hat". Isn't this illegal? Even in a right to work state? I guess they can make up some sort of excuse to fire a nurse, but isn't it illegal to fire a nurse related to union organizing activities? One nurse opioned that the reason this chain is so big in AZ is because we ARE a "right to work" state, and therefore a very weak union state.
opinions please!!!!

That kind of talk is standard union-busting hospital administration talk. All nurses working in a non-union hospital are 'at will' employees. You already are at risk of being fired for 'no reason.' A union contract gives you protection. At my hospital that is represented by CNA/NNOC, if management wants to fire you they must give reasons and explain themselves at a Skelly hearing where your union representative goes with you and represents you.

Hospitals are bound to a higher level of respect for nurses with a union contract. Management doesn't like to give away the kind of power that they have to just fire you at the drop of the hat or when they feel like it. They don't want to have to prove that you were worthy of firing. (as some are. But throughout the whole process, still, your union (if it is CNA) protects your rights.) Hospital administrators are lazy in this. But with a union contract, they MUST give up some of their power.

And yes, you are right. When you are trying to organize, it is illegal to be fired for talking about the union, distributing information about the union or just being pro union. It is an Unfair Labor Practice. Charges can be filed against the hospital and remedies had like you getting your job back, but hospitals try to do it anyway.

In this day and age with hospitals willing to spend millions of dollars to pay firms to come in and tell them how to union bust, unionizing isn't a cake walk, but it is the best thing we can do for ourselves and our patients in the end.

SKnox · Apr 2, 2008

My father-in-law works as a computer programmer for a hospital group: he works on the payroll programs. The smallest hospital of the three is unionized, the other two are not. The union nurses had a paid lunch break every day, which the hospital wanted to get rid of. What did the offer in return? Matching up to 3% of the nurses 401K contributions. It took several YEARS before the union finally relented on that issue.

So who were the unions really looking out for in that scenario?

Also, when nurses came to work, they did not clock in, someone wrote in their time on a sheet. (No room for fraud there) When the hospital tried to change that over to a system where you clocked in with a badge, the clocks were ripped off the wall. They were said to be dehumanizing. And this is in MA! Hospitals in TN and KY are more advanced then that.

Chico David, BSN, RN · Apr 2, 2008

My father-in-law works as a computer programmer for a hospital group: he works on the payroll programs. The smallest hospital of the three is unionized, the other two are not. The union nurses had a paid lunch break every day, which the hospital wanted to get rid of. What did the offer in return? Matching up to 3% of the nurses 401K contributions. It took several YEARS before the union finally relented on that issue.
So who were the unions really looking out for in that scenario?

I'm not real clear on what the point is supposed to be here - a paid lunch break is fairly unusual, but not a bad thing to have. I'd have to do some math to figure out which had more value to the nurses in dollars, but one thing that jumps out is that everyone got to benefit from the paid break, while only those who chose to make the 401K contributions could benefit from the match. My experience on issues like this - at least in CNA/NNOC - is that the stance a union takes on issues like this is pretty much determined by what the members want - after all - they ARE the union.

Also, when nurses came to work, they did not clock in, someone wrote in their time on a sheet. (No room for fraud there) When the hospital tried to change that over to a system where you clocked in with a badge, the clocks were ripped off the wall. They were said to be dehumanizing. And this is in MA! Hospitals in TN and KY are more advanced then that.[/quote]
I suspect - hope - the same thing would happen if management tried to introduce timeclocks at our hospital. As union leader, one of my ongoing frustrations is nurses who devalue themselves and their profession by voluntarily working unpaid overtime. If the workload management gives you is more than you can get done in the allotted time, you deserve to be paid for your overtime. Nurses are professionals who are trusted with dangerous drugs and the very lives of patients. I think we can be trusted to fill in our timesheets accurately. Again, in my experience, far more nurses cheat themselves than cheat their employer on time.

dzd&cnfsd · Apr 2, 2008

I am sorry you are so misinformed of the facts. I will be happy to add some facts to your listing.
1. I can work very directly with my manager, and have on many occassions. But what I can't do is make a sweetheart deal for myself at the expense of a co-worker.
2.I can under my current CNA contract advance to staff Nurse III or Staff Nurse IV. I do this by submitting my request and qualifications to a committee of peers. Peer review determines the merit of my request, not doing personal favors for my supervisor.
3. Seniority rules benefit the Hospitals as well. It prevents costly turnover. The last nonunion hospital I was at in Phoenix kept raising the pay for new grads. For three years in a row they paid more and more for new grads, all the while the RN's hired the year before were now paid less than the new grads. The turn-over was tremendous, requiring ever more new grads. At the same time the seasoned nurses who had homes or families that prevented them from leaving the area, were very resentful, and did little to help the new grads.
4. In fact the union contracts I have seen, provide multiple avenues for conflict resoloution. From PPC to Quality Forum and unit based committees, to arbitration and ADO forms. What will not happen is the "My way or the Highway" approach, which resolves nothing and promotes lingering discontent.
5. But unlike the 'bad management' you may work for. The 'bad apples' in unions are voted in, and if they fail to perform they are 'kicked to the curb'.
6. You can 'opt out', but be aware that the government has a profound impact on your practice. If you go your own way you have no chance against united hospital groups. Ratio's, lift teams and protection from mandated overtime will never happen if the hospital industry has the only political voice.
7. You need to read a contract. The whole idea is to improve retention. A contract is an 'agreement between the parties'. It is negotiated, not imposed unilaterally. The hospitals insist on incentives to retain nurses, and all the contracts I have seen reflect this. I have been in my currnet position 3 years. In that time not one nurse (in a unit with 130+ RN's) has left our hospital, that did not move out of the city or state. Some have moved to other specialties, but all those RN's saw the strong incentives in the contract to stay with the Hospital, and opted to do so.
8. I left a nonunion hospital in Phoenix, to move to Sacramento. I recieved a $30.00/hr + wage increase ( sorry, but no way that the cost of living is any where near that much higher here, in fact it is very similar). I could not care less about the dues... best bargain I ever got. Those dues monies and a whole lot more money are being used by my old hospital to replace me with a new grad.. and another... and another... I am sure the money that Phoenix hospital pays to retain all those recruiting agencies eats up far more than our union dues money.
9. If you are unhappy.. vote them out. But don't try that with your hospitals management.

Well said. To me, the ones who don't want to unionize are the ones with the "sweetheart" situations they got by "befriending." Objectivity is lost when this becomes the norm.

jeolsz · Apr 3, 2008

I can work very directly with my manager, and have on many occassions. But what I can't do is make a sweetheart deal for myself at the expense of a co-worker.

At the risk of being very unpopular on this thread, I have to question the statement above.. When I go to work, I work for the betterment of MY family, not my coworkers. So if I make a sweetheart deal, because I am more motivated, work harder and put more of myself out there, why should my lazy, less motivated coworker reap the benefits?.. OK, fellow nurses, and especially the women out there.. It's a dog eat dog world out there. In my experience, nurses get walked on alot of the time, because they don't know how to stand up for themselves as individuals, and maybe thats why alot of you favor unions. But as I've said before in this thread, I'd always favor non union situations, because I want to be rewarded for my efforts. It totally unmotivates me to do a better job, if I am rewarding just for being on a job longer, than doing that job better than my cooworker. Love me or hate me, in the end that's what gives me a greater job satisfaction.

Chico David, BSN, RN · Apr 6, 2008

I can work very directly with my manager, and have on many occassions. But what I can't do is make a sweetheart deal for myself at the expense of a co-worker.
At the risk of being very unpopular on this thread, I have to question the statement above.. When I go to work, I work for the betterment of MY family, not my coworkers. So if I make a sweetheart deal, because I am more motivated, work harder and put more of myself out there, why should my lazy, less motivated coworker reap the benefits?.. OK, fellow nurses, and especially the women out there.. It's a dog eat dog world out there. In my experience, nurses get walked on alot of the time, because they don't know how to stand up for themselves as individuals, and maybe thats why alot of you favor unions. But as I've said before in this thread, I'd always favor non union situations, because I want to be rewarded for my efforts. It totally unmotivates me to do a better job, if I am rewarding just for being on a job longer, than doing that job better than my cooworker. Love me or hate me, in the end that's what gives me a greater job satisfaction.

The above quote has kind of stuck with me and I've been mulling it over since it was originally posted. Several thoughts:

1. Far be it from me to criticize any nurse's motivations for being a nurse. Some come to it from a place of idealism, others from hard-headed precticality. Often, we evolve over time. I was late coming to nursing, having been a mechanic and farmer before. My choice of career was all about practicality. The idealism about the profession came later.

2. I had 19 years in a non-union situation, about 13 of that as a manager, before our hospital organized. (though the department I managed was so small that I spent more than half my time in patient care even then) What I saw was that nurses were rarely rewarded for being better nurses. They were sometimes rewarded for being their manager's buddy or for for shmoozing well. Since the only real way to "advance" in most nursing situations is to leave patient care, the only real rewards for nurses who do a better job are more desirable shifts and schedules or sometimes a bit of "merit" pay. In an ideal world, where all managers are fair, that might be OK, but the reality is that too often managers aren't fair and the rewards get distributed for the wrong reasons. If I must chose between the most senior nurse getting the best schedule or the manager's buddy getting the best schedule, I'll take the former.

3. Even with the most selfish of motivations, the union workplace comes out ahead. Since we organized, my salary has gone up so much that my union dues are a drop in the bucket and I simply don't care if a few less deserving nurses have also been lifted up along with the rest of us. Except in rare and special situations, the nurse in a non-union hospital will always make less than the nurse in a union hospital. The only real situation where that might not be true is in a city where the union density is so high that the non-union hospitals have been forced to match the union wage scale to compete. And even there, the benefits will usually fall short.