To pass or To be the highest?

Meriwhen, ASN, BSN, MSN, RN · Jan 25, 2009

This was the point I was trying to make by my personal story (above)--I too am trying to prove to myself that I am capable of more than my shameful 2.0 from high school. No offense to anyone that has ever gotten a 2.0, it's just not a standard I am willing to accept for myself at this point in time. Especially since I didn't graduate high school until I was 20 because of that 2.0...

Hey, none taken. The 2.0-ish grade I had the first time around in college is a large motivator in my having better grades this time around :)

Cilantrophobe · Jan 25, 2009

Hey, none taken. The 2.0-ish grade I had the first time around in college is a large motivator in my having better grades this time around :)

Same here, it is a great source of motivation. Plus, it makes me feel better about myself because when I was getting those grades, even though I knew I was capable of higher grades, they were damaging to my self esteem.

llg, PhD, RN · Jan 25, 2009

C = Satisfactory. Satisfactory means average. Mediocre means average. Satisfactory is Mediocre.
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While I should probably just stay away from this issue, I am going to try to wade in without offending anybody.

Yes, C=satisfactory ... But "satisfactory" is not the same thing as "average." It means that the level of performance has meant the minimum standard and is acceptable. "Average" refers to the midpoint level of performance. In every day language (not mathematics), it means the point at which approximately half the students perform at a higher level and half perform at a lower level: it's in the middle of the range of performance levels. Conceptually, that's not the same as "satisfactory."

100% of the class might perform at a satisfactory level and get a grade of C (or higher). The "average" grade for a class might be a B ... or even an A. Perhaps no one performs at a satsifactory level and everyone gets a grade below a C, with an average grade of F. That's possible. It all depends on the grading system of the particular school and teacher.

There are few classes taught today in which the true "average" grade is a C -- though there are some of course.

Many people are not satisfied being merely "satisfactory" -- not because they can't stand to be "average," but because they want to perform at a level higher than the minimum. Other people are relieved and even thrilled to have met the mimimum standards for passing because it has been a struggle for them to do so. We all come from our pasts and have our own burdens to bear. That leads to different perspectives on what level of performance satisfies our desires at the moment.

cursedandblessed · Jan 25, 2009

Yes A's make me happy, and I get a huge adrenaline rush from getting them. I was 3/4 of a point from one last semester. So far I've gotten two B's in nursing school, I had a 3.7 something GPA before that.

For me it's a choice, do I keep my head in the textbook 24/7, ruin my marriage from lack of involvement, turn myself into a crazy obsessed freak and get the A's, or should I do the best I can in class and clinical, take care of myself, and my family and live with the B's. I choose the last one, because it's the best for me.

Meriwhen, ASN, BSN, MSN, RN · Jan 25, 2009

Same here, it is a great source of motivation. Plus, it makes me feel better about myself because when I was getting those grades, even though I knew I was capable of higher grades, they were damaging to my self esteem.

What gets to me now--because it certainly didn't get to me then--was that it wouldn't have taken much for me to get better grades the first time around. I used to think it was very hard to have a high GPA...but now I've learned that If I had just disciplined myself better regarding studying and schoolwork, and studied a bit every day instead of waiting until the last minute and try to learn an entire semester in 12 hours, I could have had it. Or at least had better than a 2.0.

Oh well, live and learn.

trepinCT · Jan 25, 2009

Let's talk about arrogance and people skills.
As one that is usually accused of 'arrogance,' let me define what arrogance is and what it is based on.
arrogance - overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors
At it's core, the basis of arrogance is judgment. The thing about arrogance is that it comes from a place of truth. Arrogant people most often ARE smarter or more skilled than other people. Rather than just being smarter though, they start to judge other people. It occurs in little ways. Then they start to think they are better than those people.
What I am saying is that for someone to be truly arrogant they must judge others AND believe they are 'better' than another person AND have a basis for that belief (better grades, better performance or whatever).
That being said. Judging someone for being 'arrogant' AND the fact that judgment implies that the person being judged is inferior AND the basis of that judgment being that most people dislike those that are arrogant is, in and of itself, arrogance
We have had a multitude of threads related to is the student with best grades the best nurse. We HAVE answered this question though some refuse to admit it.
The bottom line is that the C student with great people skills ultimately are ALWAYS going to learn at a C level (stress or outside responsibility or whatever other excuse notwithstanding) which is satisfactory. An A student with poor people skills will always learn at an A level and can also learn people skills.
C = Satisfactory. Satisfactory means average. Mediocre means average. Satisfactory is Mediocre.
Some people just aren't happy with being mediocre. That does NOT make them arrogant.

I am fully aware of the definition of arrogance..and there are plenty of people who fall into that category and grades dont always play a part in arrogance..arrogant people THINK they are smarter than other people. The only basis for that belief is that it is what they believe. trust me, I know plenty of mediocre people who are arrogant. A C student is a student who tested at a C, that doesn't always have to do with what they know. There are people out there who are much better test takers than others.I have a professor who now has her Phd and she was always a C student, yet she is an extremely intelligent nurse and a great professor. She still continues to work at a hospital to keep up her skills when she is not teaching. Average and mediocre are not the same.But i am not going to get into that. it is obvious that some people dont understand that there are intelligent people out there who dont get As..and yes, outside factors most certainly play a part in grades..that arrogant A student is single, no job, no children and lives with her parents rent free,and she does not pay tuition. She spends every moment she has reading so that she can spit out facts like a robot. She has more time than I do to devote to school. I am not an A student, nor am I a C student..I am what would be called "average" ..a reflection of what is typical..I strive to do my best and If I had that much time to devote to studying i would be an A student also. Einstein was not at the top of his class..as a matter of fact he was labeled as stupid because he couldnt pass a test..hmmm. People skills cant always be learned..sometimes you are what you are.

As for employers looking for GPAs,I have yet to encounter that . I have begun the task of applying for jobs and none of my applications have asked for transcripts or GPA

The idea here is that we should all strive to do our best, but not to beat ourselves up when we dont get that A. Nurses dont display their nursing school GPA on their badges and it truly isint a measure of what kind of nurse you will be.also..doing the bare minimum just to get by will catch up to those who take that path because that is the lazy way and those people scare me...dont want a dummy for a nurse, but I dont want a know it all either.

NurseJeanB · Jan 25, 2009

What gets to me now--because it certainly didn't get to me then--was that it wouldn't have taken much for me to get better grades the first time around. I used to think it was very hard to have a high GPA...but now I've learned that If I had just disciplined myself better regarding studying and schoolwork, and studied a bit every day instead of waiting until the last minute and try to learn an entire semester in 12 hours, I could have had it. Or at least had better than a 2.0.
Oh well, live and learn.

Ha ha. I agree. When I think about how I could have been a nurse by now if only I had made some minor adjustments in my study habits in high school, I cringe. I knew I wanted to be a nurse, but it took me until my 30's to have the discipline to go back to school and work towards achieving that goal. There are many young people in my classes and I am just so impressed that they got on track so early. I have a teenage son and I always tell him to put in the effort and work now because it is harder when you are older. I guess I needed to take the long road.

Atheos · Jan 25, 2009

While I should probably just stay away from this issue, I am going to try to wade in without offending anybody.
Yes, C=satisfactory ... But "satisfactory" is not the same thing as "average." It means that the level of performance has meant the minimum standard and is acceptable. "Average" refers to the midpoint level of performance. In every day language (not mathematics), it means the point at which approximately half the students perform at a higher level and half perform at a lower level: it's in the middle of the range of performance levels. Conceptually, that's not the same as "satisfactory."

Actually... Satisfactory IS average.

You see... There is this thing called the 'Bell Curve.' And most people lie somewhere near the middle of it. While they may not be right smack dab on the average point, for all intents and purposes they ARE quite average. It is also those that do exist at or near the average point that most often are the ones complaining about those that don't exist at that point.

Conceptually, it is the same. Anyone that falls into that same area as the majority of people IS performing at satisfactory levels.

People that fall at either end of the curve do NOT perform satisfactorily. They either are horrible or they excel.

Unless the class does not measure performance (like Pass/Fail classes) then you can tell how 'average' people perform satisfactorily.

Sometimes average people DO get A's. That is the result of classes being to easy IMHO. People should be recognized for their talents. Having 'handicaps' (like golf) in academic settings gets old after awhile. They would be the reason our academia is falling behind other countries...

Atheos · Jan 25, 2009

We all come from our pasts and have our own burdens to bear. That leads to different perspectives on what level of performance satisfies our desires at the moment.

While this is somewhat true it does not change anything really. Some people will always be average and some will always excel. Those that excel tend to always excel.

I am fully aware of the definition of arrogance..and there are plenty of people who fall into that category and grades dont always play a part in arrogance..arrogant people THINK they are smarter than other people. The only basis for that belief is that it is what they believe. trust me, I know plenty of mediocre people who are arrogant. A C student is a student who tested at a C, that doesn't always have to do with what they know.

A, see I didn't address this part of so called 'arrogance.' This is NOT arrogance.

You said you were aware of what arrogance was. Arrogance is ALWAYS based on a modicum of truth but then distorted.

What you are talking about is conceit.

conceit - an excessively favorable opinion of one's own ability, importance, wit, etc.

It sounds the same but it isn't. Arrogance is based on being better in a certain area and expanding that to being better than a person. Conceit is BELIEVING one is better without any requisite of actually being better or having proof.

it is obvious that some people dont understand that there are intelligent people out there who dont get As..and yes, outside factors most certainly play a part in grades..that arrogant A student is single, no job, no children and lives with her parents rent free,and she does not pay tuition.

This is an excuse. I am single yet I have to pay for EVERYTHING in cash. Yet I get called arrogant. It's quite obvious that I am not arrogant yet those that are unhappy with their level of performance/abilities/intelligence ALWAYS try to find a reason to try and level the playing field. Single people have responsibilities and outside problems just like you do.

Intelligent people CAN get A's if they choose to. Average people not so much. For them it depends on the class and professor and other favorable circumstances...

People LET themselves get distracted. The semester of school that I was in (not nursing) when my baby died ended with me missing a third of classes AND STILL getting an A. We gotta quit making excuses.

Einstein was not at the top of his class..as a matter of fact he was labeled as stupid because he couldnt pass a test..hmmm.

You are proving my point. Einstein DID NOT DO BAD IN SCHOOL. You are repeating a common myth but actually have never studied the subject. He was FAR ahead of his peers. He was studying Calculus by 12 and also had become very adept at the Violin by this age. This is what I call 'finding a reason or way to level the playing field.' It's an attempt to make oneself feel better by saying 'Well, Einstein wasn't all that great.'

We ARE NOT on the same level as Einstein. That would be conceit to believe otherwise.

As for employers looking for GPAs,I have yet to encounter that . I have begun the task of applying for jobs and none of my applications have asked for transcripts or GPA

Very true, I am involved in the hiring process at my place of work and we don't look at grades. We do, however, have a VERY stringent test to get in. Funny, many don't pass it and those that don't are the same ones I can look at and judge as not being at the top of their class. Funny how that works out...

The idea here is that we should all strive to do our best, but not to beat ourselves up when we dont get that A.

Striving to do ones best usually falls short of being best. The losing team ALWAYS cries about trying to do their best. The winning team IS the best. It is a great distinction.

Of course, everyone has to be happy with themselves and their own performance I guess.

I'm not happy with anything but A's. If you are that's fine. Don't jump on me though for looking at a C with disdain. I am not looking at YOU with disdain. It's the grade and acceptance of such mediocrity that I disdain. Not you...

fiveofpeep · Jan 25, 2009

that arrogant A student is single, no job, no children and lives with her parents rent free,and she does not pay tuition. She spends every moment she has reading so that she can spit out facts like a robot.

I think this is mean spirited and shows your jealousy and rationalization for your own short comings in that you "have a life" and other responsibilities :down: . I have seen courageous women and men post on another forum about 4.00 gpas who are even single moms or have full time jobs. Dont take away from these people's achievement--it's from hard work :pumpiron:.

I have a 4.00 gpa. I am single and 20 but my dad could no longer afford to keep me so I live on my own (for the first time) and moved out during my accelerated summer. I have a job (20-30hrs/week) and it is not a kind of job where I can study while getting paid. I pay for my tuition and before I transferred from a community college I paid for my entire education, books and all...not my parents.

I decided to get a 4.00 because my deceased grandma's trust fund for me was used for my first two semesters of nursing school and I decided that I wanted to do the best I can so I can make her proud up there . I never wanted to waste her money. Now that I pay for myself my RN degree is still for her so I work hard.

And during community college I got a 4.00 because I was in an abusive relationship with someone who controlled every aspect of my life...except for school...so I overcompensated where I could. You never know where people are coming from. I was a OCD perfectionist :dzed: then, but now have worked to resolve my motivations for those A's.

I know you will probably say you werent generalizing about all A students, and I consider my life pretty easy considered to the moms and dads and full-time workers out there, but I have come across this rationalization before and just wanted to share my story so you can see a different side to people's "arrogant" intentions.

PS As to whether a C or A = intelligence, I dont really care what your grade is. My mom (an RN and very smart lady) was by no means a straight A student. It's not my place to pass judgment on my peers and nurses' education and qualifications because I dont know where they are coming from and grades are only reflective of testing and assignments. Who am I to judge them anyways?

Ill get off my soap box now hehe.

trepinCT · Jan 25, 2009

I think this is mean spirited and shows your jealousy and rationalization for your own short comings in that you "have a life" and other responsibilities . I have seen courageous women and men post on another forum about 4.00 gpas who are even single moms or have full time jobs. Dont take away from these people's achievement--it's from hard work :pumpiron:.
I have a 4.00 gpa. I am single and 20 but my dad could no longer afford to keep me so I live on my own (for the first time) and moved out during my accelerated summer. I have a job (20-30hrs/week) and it is not a kind of job where I can study while getting paid. I pay for my tuition and before I transferred from a community college I paid for my entire education, books and all...not my parents.
I decided to get a 4.00 because my deceased grandma's trust fund for me was used for my first two semesters of nursing school and I decided that I wanted to do the best I can so I can make her proud up there . I never wanted to waste her money. Now that I pay for myself my RN degree is still for her so I work hard.
And during community college I got a 4.00 because I was in an abusive relationship with someone who controlled every aspect of my life...except for school...so I overcompensated where I could. You never know where people are coming from. I was a OCD perfectionist :dzed: then, but now have worked to resolve my motivations for those A's.
I know you will probably say you werent generalizing about all A students, and I consider my life pretty easy considered to the moms and dads and full-time workers out there, but I have come across this rationalization before and just wanted to share my story so you can see a different side to people's "arrogant" intentions.
PS As to whether a C or A = intelligence, I dont really care what your grade is. My mom (an RN and very smart lady) was by no means a straight A student. It's not my place to pass judgment on my peers and nurses' education and qualifications because I dont know where they are coming from and grades are only reflective of testing and assignments. Who am I to judge them anyways?
Ill get off my soap box now hehe.

wow..first of all I did not say that i "had a life' and I was not generalizing about all A students, I am , and have been talking about an A student in my class.

I DO NOT have shortcomings as you implied..that would be the mean spirited comment.

My point was to the person who felt that only the A students are the smart ones, that they are the only ones who work hard and that is not true.

Being arrogant doesnt also mean smart..another point i was trying to make that someone else had mentioned that arrogant people are that way because they are smarter than others.

I am seeing both sides of it and pointing out to those who only see one side that your GPA doesn't necessarily dictate what kind of nurse you will be.

i think we are in agreement with the fact that we should not be judging people based on what their grades are. I hope that you have read through this whole thread because what I was trying to do was to defend the "less than perfect GPA" students from those who were implying that only the 4.0s work hard and the C students accept their mediocrity..

I dont believe in being hung up about grades, as you mentioned , we all have come from different places in our lives. we have all bore our crosses to get here. Nursing school is not easy and takes a lot of work. It is not easy no matter what you life is. My comments about the A student in my class stem from that fact that she is arrogant and believes that she is superior to the rest of us . Not all A students are like that. My point was that if I had that much time dedicated to school, my grades would reflect that. Its not jealousy, I didnt carry on about her or about my own life. I wasnt rationalizing, I was stating a fact- the more time you put in, the more you get out. My grades reflect what i put in and there are times I am able to put more time in and my grades show that, then there are the times I do what i can and walk away with a B or even a B-..I will admit that I have also earned myself a few Cs in nursing school.

I think our grades are none of any other classmates business. I hope that you can see that we are on the same page here with our thinking, because I agree with you about grades and good nurses.We should always push to do our best, but not beat ourselves up if we do less than perfect. that is what this thread is about. Most of us have aimed high, getting into nursing school was a tough competition and not for those who gave less than 100% to begin with.

:heartbeat

Meriwhen, ASN, BSN, MSN, RN · Jan 25, 2009

That arrogant A student is single, no job, no children and lives with her parents rent free,and she does not pay tuition. She spends every moment she has reading so that she can spit out facts like a robot. She has more time than I do to devote to school.

I have a child, a job (freelance), am married (but since it's to a military servicemember, more often than not I'm a single parent), don't live with my parents and so have to pay a mortgage, and pay every single penny of my tuition because despite my grades I make enough income to miss qualifying for almost all need-based scholarships. Most often the only study time I when the child goes to bed, which is after 9-10pm. And I maintain a 4.0. It's taken sacrifices and I've learn to make every minute with those books count, but it's possible.

And lest you think I'm an anomaly: of the top students in my class, almost all of them are parents (not all of them married), on limited to no financial aid, and who are also working. And no, none of us are arrogant about it. In fact, we're spending what little extra time we have helping our classmates do better too. I'm sorry you have to deal with an arrogant classmate, but not all of us who have high GPAs are like that, really! :)

Seriously, it's not how much time you have, but what you make of the time you DO have. That is what makes the difference. You can have all the time in the world and it won't mean jack if you use it poorly. Use 2-3 hours efficently, and one can accomplish much more than you think.

I realized after I posted that when I had the 2.0 the first time around, I was that person your described: single, no job, living with the 'rents who were paying the tuition...so theoretically I should have been a 4.0 student because all I had to worry about was studying. Didn't work out that way because I didn't understand the importance of using my time wisely. I know better now