To the Experienced Nurse

RNStudy · Mar 2, 2010

Wow, I almost forgot how mean some people are :uhoh3: (some of the replies are a bit harsh)

Katie, I think your writing gave an insight into how a new nurse can feel when faced with an unsupportive preceptor. I know you werent implying that all experienced nurses have these characteristics.

Please know that you WILL be that experienced nurse one day: stay positive, confident, ambitious and open to learning new things. Persevere!

nursemike, ASN, RN · Mar 2, 2010

Doubt it. It's like pain. It is what the patient says it is. Why would you question it?
Instead of understanding they are not getting it, why get mean about it?

I think you have a point--it is like pain: some people have a low threshhold and/or low tolerance for it. They may have a limited future as a nurse. Not because it's okay that some people are mean, but because even the nicest people are not going to say, "Would you mind pushing the epinephrine, please?" Also because I've learned the hard way that you aren't doing someone a favor if you are so understanding that they aren't getting it that they never do get it. The novice also has to understand that "not getting it," is not okay. If people aren't doing everything they can to see that they do get it, they need to be motivated, or they need to get out. If they think they've got it and they don't, they need to be corrected.

I heartily concur with any who believe that mean is not the first resort, but after nice hasn't worked three or four times, what do you do? Is it nicer just to wait for management to say, "Well, they haven't gotten it, so we'll have to let them go?"

I'm honestly not trying to argue that mean nurses are always justified. Some, yeah, are just mean. But I have met a lot of nurses in the past few years, and very, very few are just inherently nasty (and some of those who are are less experienced than I am). I just want new nurses to realize that a.) under the very best possible circumstances, what you're going through is hard, and you should expect to feel frustrated, discouraged, embarassed, and tired on a regular basis and b.) positive reinforcement and constructive criticism are great, but not the same thing. I, for one, just hate getting constructive criticism. I know I need it, and I do appreciate it, but I never enjoy it, so I try hard to avoid being wrong. I also try very, very hard to respond appropriate to constructive criticism, because I like destructive criticism even less.

Do you want to talk mean? I seriously doubt there has ever been a first-year nurse who hasn't made at least one reportable error. By that I mean, reportable to the Board of Nursing as an unsafe nurse. I've never actually heard of it happening, either. Even in one case that, in retrospect, really should have. It doesn't happen because every experienced nurse knows that it could have happened to them, too, and you make allowances for inexperience. But there are limits to the allowances you can make.

It's okay to whine a little. Come on allnurses.com and complain about the mean nurses. Go home and tell your family. But also try to realize that the kindest, most patient nurse who ever lived can't do this for you. And this is also true: every experienced nurse has been through it, and remembers it. You don't forget an experience like that. (A few, it's true, may convince themselves that they were Supernurse right out of the gate, but they're the exception.) But many experienced nurses also remember watching someone who worked really hard--maybe harder than you, even--and just couldn't get it, and that's terrible to see. And even more have probably seen a new nurse who managed to put forth just enough effort to settle into a career of mediocrity, never doing more than they absolutely had to and moaning about the little bit they do do--and, yes, crapping all over the newbies every chance they get.

So when a tough old battle axe like Ruby kicks you in the pants, the proper reply is, "Thank you, mistress, may I please have another?"

Nursing is like sepsis. When it gets in your blood, it's hard to get rid of, and it will eventually kill you. This is the path you have chosen.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 2, 2010

rubyveee you of all people should know better.

huh? i should know better than what exactly? and why me of all people?

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 2, 2010

true but maybe they are just being mean...why would somebody be mean when they are trying to help???
some seasoned nurses are mean...let's be honest, i see them daily and i see how they respond to questions from the new nurses! i was lucky to have none of them as a preceptor...my preceptor was male nurse who started practising the year i was born haha and 3 years later a few states away from him he is still my best friend even though he is 20 something years my senior, he made me who i am today...nd i thank god am one of those approachable nurses,
but to be fair...i have seen really clueless, defensive and annoying new grads that just won't learn and keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again just because they can. makes me wonder if they are doing it for the sake of it or because they are just daft:d

you've totally missed my point, but nursemike said it better, anyway. mean is in the eye of the beholder means that when some folks look at a seasoned nurse trying to help them through a critical thinking process without spoon feeding them the answer, they see "a nasty old hag who isn't helping me a bit and ought to retire anyway." others may see an experienced nurse trying to help them improve their critical thinking in order to make them a better nurse. and it may be exactly the same nurse and exactly the same incident.

those who see the experienced nurse trying to help them tend to be happier, last longer and be better nurses. which are you?

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 2, 2010

doubt it. it's like pain. it is what the patient says it is. why would you question it?
instead of understanding they are not getting it, why get mean about it?
i have had teachers, instructors, preceptors and as a student/learner you know who's mean and who's truly devoted to teaching people.
you sure can learn a lot about this profession of ours on this board. not always what you were hoping to learn.

oh, sweetie! you have so much to learn!

while it's a nice theory that "the pain is what the patient says it is" the theory seems to depart from reality where the feces hits the fan. when you get some experience under your belt, you'll learn that.

there are bullies out there, but they're far fewer and farther between than people new to the board or new to nursing seem to understand. the rest of those "bullies" out there are just tired, overworked experienced nurses who are trying to help you learn what you need to learn to be a good nurse and help us out. why call someone "mean" or "nasty" or "bully" just because you can't learn what they're trying to teach you. while it may be true that their teaching style doesn't match your learning style, it doesn't mean they're wrong. suck it up and try to learn all you can from everyone you can. some preceptors are better at coddling newbies and sugarcoating negative feedback than others . . . it doesn't mean that they're nicer, better nurses or better teachers. it just means that they're better at coddling and sugarcoating which, in the end, doesn't help anyone whose attitude is correctly adjusted learn any better. and sometimes they don't have as much to teach.

RNandRRT · Mar 2, 2010

oh, sweetie! you have so much to learn!
while it's a nice theory that "the pain is what the patient says it is" the theory seems to depart from reality where the feces hits the fan. when you get some experience under your belt, you'll learn that.
there are bullies out there, but they're far fewer and farther between than people new to the board or new to nursing seem to understand. the rest of those "bullies" out there are just tired, overworked experienced nurses who are trying to help you learn what you need to learn to be a good nurse and help us out. why call someone "mean" or "nasty" or "bully" just because you can't learn what they're trying to teach you. while it may be true that their teaching style doesn't match your learning style, it doesn't mean they're wrong. suck it up and try to learn all you can from everyone you can. some preceptors are better at coddling newbies and sugarcoating negative feedback than others . . . it doesn't mean that they're nicer, better nurses or better teachers. it just means that they're better at coddling and sugarcoating which, in the end, doesn't help anyone whose attitude is correctly adjusted learn any better. and sometimes they don't have as much to teach.

we'll have to agree to disagree.

18 years of watching this game and there's a reason the stigma "nurses eat their own" can't get shaken.

some of the meanest people ever hide under the guise of "wisened ole' nurse". the bullies are plenty out there and they aren't interested in helping anybody. i don't need or look for the help. this is from watching it all play out like a broadway show. even the responses on here are ugly.

this conversation has taken on many different routes at this point. if someone just doesn't get how to be a nurse that's one thing, but there are nurse preceptors and "seasoned" individuals that are just rude and ugly. don't see it in any other ancillary service or profession like you do in nursing. not saying it doesn't exist people, just saying nursing owns the title.

nobody's there to learn to help you out. they're there to help the patient out. if you're tired and overworked, that's your problem. don't take it out on the newbie.

so don't try and sugarcoat their intolerance.

just from your condescending response in your first 2 sentences tells me all i need to know.

thanks "honey".

NurseAdida · Mar 2, 2010

oh, sweetie! you have so much to learn!
while it's a nice theory that "the pain is what the patient says it is" the theory seems to depart from reality where the feces hits the fan. when you get some experience under your belt, you'll learn that.
there are bullies out there, but they're far fewer and farther between than people new to the board or new to nursing seem to understand. the rest of those "bullies" out there are just tired, overworked experienced nurses who are trying to help you learn what you need to learn to be a good nurse and help us out. why call someone "mean" or "nasty" or "bully" just because you can't learn what they're trying to teach you. while it may be true that their teaching style doesn't match your learning style, it doesn't mean they're wrong. suck it up and try to learn all you can from everyone you can. some preceptors are better at coddling newbies and sugarcoating negative feedback than others . . . it doesn't mean that they're nicer, better nurses or better teachers. it just means that they're better at coddling and sugarcoating which, in the end, doesn't help anyone whose attitude is correctly adjusted learn any better. and sometimes they don't have as much to teach.

what makes you assume that these nurses were mean because the preceptee "didn't just get" or just can't learn. that too is not an excuse to be rude by the way. she doesn't get it because she is learning and thats why you are her preceptor!!! it's not ok for an "experienced" nurse to roll her eyes or make a loud sigh or make those rude comments about their new grad preceptee in the break room because they "didn't get it". and it's not ok that people accept this.

being respectful and professional does not equate "cuddling" and "sugarcoating". how would you feel if a doctor yelled at you or made some rude remarks to you because you "didn't get it"? :rolleyes:

husker_rn, RN · Mar 2, 2010

Sounds like you have been having a rough time with being precepted. Many of us DO remember what it was like. I am sorry that it has not been what you wished for. Take time to learn from it; you can learn from everything. You learn what to do or what not to do in your nursing practice whether it be with patients, co-workers, or new nurses you may some day precept. Find someone who will willingly mentor you....good luck !!!

nursemike, ASN, RN · Mar 2, 2010

Just from your condescending response in your first 2 sentences tells me all I need to know.
Thanks "honey".

No, Dude, it tells you all you want to know. This conversation is not about pretty princess who want to be nurses but never get their fingers dirty or miss lunch, and it isn't about miserable old hags who want everyone to suffer as much as possible. Sadly, yes, they do exist, and one generally becomes the other, if they hang around that long.

But the far more interesting discussion, to me, is about the struggling newbie who is going to be a great nurse, and the already great nurses trying to get them there, and that process is not always pretty. And we will have to agree to disagree, because in my 12 years in healthcare (almost 5 as a nurse) I've seen very little eating of young, and almost never by nurses with decades of experience. I have seen nurses roll their eyes and sigh and explain it one more time, and I have seen nurses suddenly say, "Aha! Now I get it!" As a matter of fact, I seem to be at the point in my career where I'm about equally likely to be on either end of that experience. Which is...interesting.

I think the point I'm trying to make, particularly in repsonse to the OP, is that when experienced nurses pull their hair out and kick the med cart and cuss, try to be glad they think you're worth the trouble. If they didn't, they wouldn't waste their time on you.

leslie :-D · Mar 2, 2010

It's not ok for an "experienced" nurse to roll her eyes or make a loud sigh or make those rude comments about their new grad preceptee in the break room because they "didn't get it". And it's not ok that people accept this.

no need for disrespect, i agree.

and while i have worked with nurses who just needed to leave the profession (experience irrelevant), i do raise an eyebrow at those who cannot take the pressure as a new nurse/preceptee.

i liken it to a continuation of nsg school...

you know, those God-awful instructors who brow-beat us to death.

when i had an instructor like that, rather than cry/whine, i muttered a few obscenities under my breath and showed them what i was made of.

and this is what precepting is like.

i do not coddle my newbies.

my expectations are high for myself, and demand that of those i precept.

i do not have time to coddle them or hold their hand.

however, i am always available, explain my rationales and communication is always key.

at the end of the shift, if they need to cry, that is fine...i so understand.

but during the time i teach, i expect a new nurse to listen, observe, ask questions, take notes and just overall, know how to deal with the pervasive stressors that nursing entails.

finally, a preceptor should never forget to reinforce the positive actions of a newbie.

but i am not their cheerleader, just need to call it as i see it.

if the crux of their complaints are "she is so mean to me", i want to shake them til they understand.

yes, i can come across as abrasive, but nsg is a serious business, where only the tough need apply.

i know there must be nurses who eat their young, although i tend to see this lateral violence as ageless.

if there is one thing i can get across to newbies, is to grow an impermeable skin while remaining sensitive to other's needs.

it's an art, believe me.

and for those of you who learn how to 'deal', will inevitably appreciate the lessons learned, regardless of who taught them.

this is no profession for the frail.

truly, time to buck up.

leslie

Pepper The Cat, BSN, RN · Mar 2, 2010

I have on occasion rolled my eyes and gotten frustrated with a new nurse. It usually because they aren't retainining the new information. If I have to show them 3 or 4 times how to hang blood, or where the night pharmacy list is kept, yes, I'll get annoyed. I am happy to help you with a new procedure, but ask ahead of time so I can plan it into my day, not 1 minute before you want to do it.

And if you know you have a "cocky" attitude, then you need to correct that. I don't care if you are using it to hide that you are scared. All I see is the cockiness and it annoys me because it makes me feel used and unappreciated.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 2, 2010

we'll have to agree to disagree.
18 years of watching this game and there's a reason the stigma "nurses eat their own" can't get shaken.
some of the meanest people ever hide under the guise of "wisened ole' nurse". the bullies are plenty out there and they aren't interested in helping anybody. i don't need or look for the help. this is from watching it all play out like a broadway show. even the responses on here are ugly.
this conversation has taken on many different routes at this point. if someone just doesn't get how to be a nurse that's one thing, but there are nurse preceptors and "seasoned" individuals that are just rude and ugly. don't see it in any other ancillary service or profession like you do in nursing. not saying it doesn't exist people, just saying nursing owns the title.
nobody's there to learn to help you out. they're there to help the patient out. if you're tired and overworked, that's your problem. don't take it out on the newbie.
so don't try and sugarcoat their intolerance.
just from your condescending response in your first 2 sentences tells me all i need to know.
thanks "honey".

i'm really sorry for you that you keep encountering all these mean, nasty people. i can't imagine how you've managed to run into so many awful people, because i just don't see them out there. but perhaps you're just so perfect they're all jealous of you. it couldn't possibly be that you're seeing mean people because you're just a tad bit negative.

i'm sure you would never sigh or roll your eyes when some orientee who is more interested in facebook than patient care asks you the same question for the umpteenth time or forgets to chart her pain meds yet again and thus her patient was double medicated. i'm sure you'd never snap at a new person who is fiddle farting around opening packages neatly and precisely rather than just ripping open the epi and pushing because the patient is dead and about to get deader. and if someone did snap "just push it already", you'd come down on that person like a ton of bricks because after all, it's better to be nice to the orientee than save that patient.

every one of us "mean old hags" was a newbie once upon a time, and we all learned. some of us learned fast or the easy way, some learned slow or the old way. but we all remember what it was like to be the newest nurse on the floor. the thing is, none of the newbies who are chastising us for being "mean and nasty" has any idea what it's like to be the experienced nurse tasked with orienting a new hire and wanting to do her absolute best both for the patient and for the new nurse but realizing that sometimes it's one or the other but not both. so if i snap at you to "just push it already" it doesn't mean i'm mean or hateful or picking on you -- it probably just means that if that patient doesn't get that drug right this second, badness will ensue. if i sigh and roll my eyes when you ask me for the seventh time -- this afternoon -- where the blood bank is while i'm trying to start an iv on someone who's 20 liters up on fluid, understand that i'm not doing it to bully you. i'm just overwhelmed at this instant and you are contributing far more to that than you need to. if you pay attention, you'll learn where the blood bank is after the first three or four times i tell you this afternoon.

but from your posts i probably know quite a bit about you.