Things LTC Nurses wish EMTs and Paramedics would understand.

Nurses General Nursing

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The long lived what seems to be country wide rivalry between EMTs and Long Tern Care Nurses is an obvious one. Long into social media, you see EMT pages posting ridiculing memes about long term care facilities and the pooor nursing care provided. Visit and EMS forum, and you'll see threads doing the same.

As a former EMT, now LTC Nurse, I've come up with a list things that I do believe every LTC Nurse wished EMTs understood.

1. There's a big difference in quality of care when patient ratios are 2:1 rather than 1:40 plus. When an LTC Nurse doesn't know the answer to a question off the top of his/her head, doesn't know the events leading up to the emergency, I doesn't mean that they are lazy or incompetent, when you have 40 demanding residents, to give medications too, and loads of charting and other work to do, as a charge nurse, you will not know every detail about every resident every minute of the shift. Imagine getting to the hospital to give report on 1 patient and having 40 patients in the back of your ambulance.

2. We don't make the rules. Sometimes as EMTs you may think that just because a patient fell and has no S/S of head injury that the transport isn't necessary, but a doctors order is a doctors order. If a residents primary care physician orders an ER eval, then that's fina. There's nothing you can say that's gonna change the fact that my resident is going to the hospital. As a licensed nurse, I will not be standing in front of my state board at a hearing, having to explain why i refused to carry out a physicians order. I once told an EMT who was being difficult and causing a scene in the hallway, asking why we were sending a resident out for such a small not in his head, in such stormy conditions outside, " Because I'm not putting my license on the line by tellling Dr. Brown (not real name) that I am not sending his patient to the hospital, but you are more than welcome to do so,".

EMTs and Nurses play a very vital but very different part of healthcare today. And I do think that if we could be a little more understanding of each other's roles, responsibilities, obligations, and limitations, the ride for the resident from the LTC Facilty to the local ED may be a little less rocky.

Specializes in Case mgmt., rehab, (CRRN), LTC & psych.
No, it REALLY DOESN'T MATTER where the IV is! This is one of the most stupid questions/ report items I have ever heard in my decades of nursing. Is it patent? That really is all that is needed. Even gauge is being a little anal retentive.

And besides, this particular emergency department's policy is to discontinue all IV lines that were not originally inserted at the hospital anyway.

In other words, any peripheral IV lines that were started at a nursing home, post-acute rehab facility, outpatient infusion center, another hospital, or in the field by EMS are all getting discontinued once patients arrive at this specific hospital's ED. The receiving ER nurse starts a new IV.

Thus, it wasn't as if the ER nurse to whom I gave report would be ever using the IV access that we placed. While I'll reiterate I should've known which wrist the IV was located due to being the house supervisor, I feel the nurse underhandedly tried to mock the assumed lack of knowledge of those of us who aren't in acute care.

Specializes in ICU, LTACH, Internal Medicine.

Me: Ready to have a coronary as the ambulance is turn away and they leave. I then called they daughter, explained the situation, and put her on the phone with the woman. She agrees to go but the husband is now mad. "But the young doctor fellow said it could wait". Me, irritated beyond belief finally hit a breaking point and said something that I would never do. "HE is not a doctor. HE is an EMT. I am a NURSE and have known your wife for MONTHS, not MINUTES, and something is very WRONG right now".

Why do you think that you did something wrong?

It is just a fact that 98% of general population has no idea who in healthcare business does and knows what. For the majority of people, there are "doctors" (mostly male, make decisions aka "tell what to do"), and "nurses" (everybody else wearing scrubs). You just told the husband the truth and advocated for your patient, nothing else :)

I had quite a few times patients insisting on "doctor said this/that" while that "doctor" was in fact CENA, and explaining that, even if a real doctor would have told them something, it was so X hours ago when the patient was still breathing on his own and, however correct it was then and there, it doesn't apply at the current moment.

I do risk management consulting for our County EMS division, and the big issue up here now is LTC calling 911 to pick up a patient who has fallen. This is not necessarily due to any injuries sustained by the patient or that the patient needs transport to the ED, but rather so that LTC staff does not sustain any injuries by lifting the patient.

There have been a couple times where Ive called 3 different ambulance companies and none of them had a reasonable eta. If it can wait a couple hours, I wait for the private ambulance service. But if my assessment leads to the conclusion that the pt cant wait hours, I notify the doctor, my nurse manager, and have to call 911. For example, a GI bleed my coworker had a few days ago. And recently I had to send someone 911 because the private ambulance service didnt have anyone to send out within a reasonable time limit. The pt had all the s/s of a PE. I had to call 911. Sure enough, he had a PE. Or last week when my pt complained of chest pain with exertion and her SBP was in the 90's, which was NOT her norm. Again, no private ambulance available so I sent her 911. I did not think she was having an MI, but you never know. I'm not taking that risk. Paramedics get there and then the pt changed her story entirely stating she did not have chest pain. Eyeroll. So the 911 paramedics were rude.

I've only had to call 911 a few times, and luckily I've had good experiences with most EMTs and Paramedics.

Just like there are some rude nurses, there are some rude medics.

Specializes in Case mgmt., rehab, (CRRN), LTC & psych.
I've only had to call 911 a few times, and luckily I've had good experiences with most EMTs and Paramedics.

Just like there are some rude nurses, there are some rude medics.

In my personal experience, the municipal fire/rescue EMS staff from the city fire department has generally been more professional and less testy than the EMTs/paramedics from the local private ambulance services.

Also, the city has a contract with a private ambulance service. Thus, when 911 is called, the aforementioned ambulance service often responds. The men and women employed by this private EMS service are also rude at times, but the attitudes have lessened over the years as more LTC nurses call complaints into their managers.

As a former EMT and current ER Nurse, I respect no other specialty more than LTC nurses. I can't think of a more demanding nursing position than a LTC nurse. Perhaps I am in the minority here, but having transported Pt's from LTC facilities as an EMT, and now receiving them in the ER as a RN, I can only imagine what a shift is like for you guys.

It's extremely difficult to work together from A to Z, and with the elderly that are chronically ill with frequent re-admits to the hospital, it is very easy to lose an important piece of information that may save his or her life. Is the Pt on blood thinners? When was the last well known neuro check? Does the Pt have a DNR? Are the vital signs stable? Stuff like this is critical to know. Yes the Pt may be a frequent flier, but this information must never be taken for granted just because they have been to the hospital 8 times in the past month. We tend to see a complete lack of communication between LTC facilities and EMS because of this. Just last night, I had a pt come in for a routine fall eval with no cardiac history get admitted to tele for newly diagnosed rapid a-fib at 95 years old. The EMT's never reported the Pt had a HR irregular and tachy. A few days days ago, we had a Pt come in having a massive MI where ALCS was never dispatched because BLS treated it as routine. There are other instances when we receive a Pt from LTC with basically no history from EMTs because they were unable to obtain report.

Did the LTC nurse not call and give you report?

Specializes in M/S, LTC, Corrections, PDN & drug rehab.

This is one of the many reason why I will never work LTC again!

Specializes in ED, Pedi Vasc access, Paramedic serving 6 towns.

There are two sides to every story.... As a paramedic here are some examples why I have little faith on nursing homes!

1) Called to a nursing home for a "hypoxic" patient with respiratory distress and a history Huntington's Disease. Arrive to find a 40ish year old patient in a diaper only lying in a bed, with no clothes on, and with NO blankets to be found and the air condition on around 60 degrees. (NO I am not exaggerating or making this up). The nursing home nurse relates the patient is "cyanotic, but he won't let me put a nasal cannula on him, as he keeps taking it off." This patient had advanced Huntington's and could no longer walk or talk. My partner and I look at the patent who has NO central cyanosis, but who has blue, cold extremities. Not a single nurse at this facility could figure out that this patient was hypothermic from the environment they set up!!! The patient was not cyanotic and not hypoxic, he had a RR of about 15-20! So we transported this patient so he could actually get some clothes put on him and a blanket, and a warm environment!

2) Called to a nursing home for a cardiac arrest. Told by the nursing home nurses that "we just saw him ten minutes ago and he was fine". My partner and I get in the room to find a pulseless and apneic elderly patient lying in the bed with FULL RIGOR MORTUS!! You saw him ten minutes ago? really? Again, this is a true story!

3) Called to another nursing home for a cardiac arrest. Arrive to be told that the staff have been doing CPR for 45 MINUTES! Yes, that is right, 45 minutes! When I asked why they did not call us immediately I was told by the nurse that she was waiting to get a hold of the doctor for an order to transport to the hospital! So, you think this patient is still viable after you have been doing CPR for 45 minutes on the soft mattress???!!

5) If I got a dollar for every time a nursing home staff member said "I don't usually work this floor, so I don't know". "This is my first day on this floor, so I don't know". "This patient just got here, so I don't know"... the list goes on. This is why we lack respect for nursing home staff, because you do not prove to us that you are knowledgeable and skilled at caring for your patients. I get that you have a large patient load, but the examples above are ALL true experiences that just I have had. So when you pass out medications, you don't note the patient's condition or mental status? Are you just robots essentially?

When we ask what the patient's baseline mental status is and you say "I don't know", that doesn't help us, because you need to either find out! You are calling for "altered mental status", how do you know if you do not know what their baseline is???? Heck, ask one of the CNAs they deal with them everyday! When your answer to almost every question we ask of you is " I don't know" followed by an excuse, no we won't have respect for you or your staff. When you are asking if you can have your NON-REUSABLE BVM back to reuse (this has happened numerous times), no we won't have respect for you. when we regularly see patient's at the nursing home with respiratory distress on a non-rebreather at 6 LPM, no we won't have respect. (especially when I have specifically told you in the past that you are suffocating the patient and giving them less oxygen than is in the atmosphere)! When it's clear that no critical thinking is happening, no we will not have respect for you.

Respect is given and earned over time. If we consistently go to your facility and have these experiences, which unfortunately is happening all over the country everyday, we won't respect you. Would you expect a patient to respect me and have faith in my abilities if my answer was "I don't know" to every question I asked of them?

Do I think any of this warrants rude behavior at the time of the call absolutely not, but understand that the general lack of critical thinking or knowledge we seem to experience in SOME nursing homes/rehabs is very frustrating to EMS staff, who just want to do what is best for the patient.

Annie

This is too true. I work in TCU and unfortunately we are not equipped to deal with certain scenarios that a hospital is equipped to deal with. I get looks from the EMTs all the time because I'm sending someone in that looks "fine". In my professional opinion and in the professional opinion of the provider that OKed the patient to go in, just send em in. How wonderful would it be that they get sent in and they are fine!? I don't just place calls to the EMT just for fun. It's a lot of work, and it takes me away from other patients who are sick or need some pills. I truly appreciate the work the EMTs do, believe me, I don't want their job, but I wish that the riff between us would soften, even a little!! I only want what's best for my patient. I have half the patient load you all do in LTC. I wish people would remember that, we aren't lazy, we run our butts off, and we care for everyone in our building!

I had a wide range of reactions when EMS was called to various facilities that I worked in. I called EMS for transport on a lady having chest pains and the fire trucks and everyone responded. They listened to her and to us and had the best attitude ever. Yes she was in her 80's but chest pain is chest pain and should be treated. After all DNR does not mean DO NOT TREAT. Then I worked in a rehab place attached to a hospital, if we had any emergency we had a fight on our hands. We were not covered by MDs at night, only by phone. The MD gave the order to send the patient to the ER and then the fun began. We were yelled at, demeaned, held up in ridicule, told we did not know what we were doing. One night we had a hemodyalsis pt come out of his room and his access had blown a hole in it and was spurting blood with every beat of his heart. My fellow RN and I put him in a wheelchair, as one of us applied pressure and held the arm up the other pushed the wheelchair as fast as we could go to the ER on the other side of the compound. The RN that met us berated us and told us we should have been able to take care of that. This was at 3 AM mind you. Thank God for the resident who stepped in and said "they could not do anything for him, he needs emergency intervention." I wanted to kiss him. I would say in my history the reactions have been mixed and highly variable. I do think it is better now than it was. There are some newer EMTs and RN in emergency rooms who see the world a little different. The nurse that talked down to us at that 3AM sprint was disciplined for what she said as she said it in earshot of the patient. He was blind but not deaf.

Specializes in Float Pool - A Little Bit of Everything.

I worked ER when I first became a nurse, so I had a lot of preconceived notions when I started PRN at a SNF. Some of them were right on and some of them were totally off. In the ER, we always had an awesome working relationship with EMT. But boy, when they came into the SNF did they have a chip on their shoulder. Part of me understood it because the SNF nurse does not think like them, an ER nurse doesn't really either but there is a big difference between an ER and SNF nurse. Another part of me wished they would have been a bit more understanding of these things when they came in the SNF.

Specializes in Emergency.

No, we usually receive report from BLS or ALS along with transfer documentation.

At the two personal care facilities I've been charge at, we don't have any lifts. When I only have 2 staff in the entire building and the resident is either confused or combative or weak, I'll always make a safe decision for the other staff and the resident. It's great to be able to call for a lift assist in the personal care setting, where the acuity of the residents is always increasing. In LTC where they have lifts and have 4x the staffing I have, that's a something I don't know the first thing about.

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