5 things would have detered nurse from killing

[Emergent]

"I've given a lot of thought to changes that could have been made where I would not have been able to do this."

5 things nurse Elizabeth Wettlaufer suggests might have stopped her killing | CBC News

Listed in the article are the 5 things that Canadian nurse Elizabeth Wettlaufer say could have deterred her serial killing of patients.

She thinks insulin should be counted, for one. I hope that doesn't come into being, but I can see some desk jockey thinking it a great idea.

Interesting that she says Seroquel numbed her conscience and made it easier to kill. It sounds like she was very poorly monitored psychiatrically.

[Neats, BSN]

I agree with most you here on this thread. As a former prison nurse/manager I can say she had the hairs on the back of my head stick out...this is a fear in me I listen too. I think she knows what she did was wrong and for what ever reason she got caught and now has to come up with a story to blame it on something else other than her own actions...independent of other situations. She is going to prison and more than likely will never get paroled so she will be the "mother hen" behind bars. She will continue to be a dangerous woman only with the other inmates, staff and anyone else who comes across her path. She will manipulate others to get what she wants. It is her life.

[Leader25, ASN, BSN, RN]

[ Her quote :"It wasn't counted and I knew that was something that could kill people. The lack of following up on insulin is what made it available to me," she said. ]

Are you kidding me seriously ?This woman does not want to take responsibility for what she did.All smoke and mirrors.

I hope they find a place to put her with Richard Angelo the other nut case.

She has no race card,or feminist card to pull so this is the medication card,what a bunch of horse manure.

[FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN]

I think we can probably assume the the woman was crazy. She had no logical motive to kill these people. I'm no psychiatrist, but the one who was seeing her wasn't very perceptive at all, and my layman diagnosis is that she is nuts and he is incompetent.

She knew enough at one point to check herself into a mental facility and confess. I wouldn't write off her conscience entirely.

As far as her confessing to her friend and pastor, I'm curious whether this was corroborated by them? That's the part of her story that does sound very farfetched.

You don't know anything about her psychiatrist.

Serial killing isn't mental illness, it's evil.

[Crystal-Wings, LVN]

She was gross just to look at, aside from everything she did. I watched the video of the police interviewing her and she just ripped a fart in front of the investigating officer.

[macawake, MSN]

Reading the various responses in this thread I am struck by how emotional many of them are and I wonder if everyone has even tried to find all the available facts about this case, or if you're just gut-reacting to what are undeniably horrific crimes.

Quite frankly I don't know if I believe half that crap. She told MORE THAN ONE PERSON including a LAWYER she was killing people and everybody basically went "meh"?!?! I can't. She is a serial killer. Her brainwaves are screwed. As far as I'm concerned she has zero credibility.

Sure, it's difficult to imagine that so many people would hear a confession to murder, and do nothing. But is it impossible? Not at all.

If Wettlaufer is telling the truth when she says that she confessed to all these people, their reaction was in all likelihood not "meh". They probably failed to wrap their heads around the fact that this person they knew well, was in fact a serial killer. People do react in strange ways with a lot of psychological defense mechanisms coming into play.

If it is true that she confessed to all these people, I doubt they will admit to it today, so her story is likely hard to corroborate. The people who heard her confessions, if in fact they did, have to come to terms with the fact that they could possibly have prevented the later murders if they had acted.

Have you ever interviewed family members, close friends or neighbors of a person who's being charged or has been recently convicted of any type of gruesome or sensational crime? The standard response is they had no idea. Some might say that "he" was always a bit of a loner or aloof or something along those lines, but they never believe that someone they know could in fact commit such horrific crimes.

CBlover, why do you think she has zero credibility? I agree that she might not be upstanding citizen numero uno, but the way I view it is that criminals who confess to things and acts, where the confessions actually hurt them/their case, gain at least a modicum of credibility.

I'll give you an example from this specific case. She confessed to deliberately choosing the most vulnerable victims available, because she realized that their dementia might help her if they were to ever accuse her of wrongdoing. She knew her victims would likely not be believed due to their condition. As I said previously, that's cold and calculated.

She could easily have explained her choice of victims in a way that didn't paint her in such a repulsive light. She could have said that she picked victims with dementia because she felt sorry for them and she was convinced they had low quality of life due to dementia, and tried to portray her murders as acts of "mercy". That's still not a pretty picture, but it's light-years better than wilfully preying on the weakest, most vulnerable population for the express purpose of self-preservation.

She didn't do this. She went for the ugliest explanation possible and owned it.

I think we can probably assume the the woman was crazy. She had no logical motive to kill these people.

Of course crazy isn't a legal diagnosis and we aren't in a position to say anything definitive about this case, but I do agree with you in general terms.

Murder is always wrong, but in my opinion in most cases you can at least identify a motive from the murderer's perspective. It can be for financial gain, it can be anger, jealousy or revenge, it can be to conceal a crime/rid oneself of a witness. There are many reasons. It doesn't make murder in any way acceptable, but you can logically identify a motive in these cases. When there isn't a logical motive, I agree that crazy is an appropriate label.

[ Her quote :"It wasn't counted and I knew that was something that could kill people. The lack of following up on insulin is what made it available to me," she said. ]

Are you kidding me seriously ?This woman does not want to take responsibility for what she did.All smoke and mirrors.

She has no race card,or feminist card to pull so this is the medication card,what a bunch of horse manure.

AFTER Wettlaufer voluntarily confessed and was sentenced to eight concurrent life sentences AND had started serving her sentence, she was CONTACTED BY three lawyers who visited her in prison.

These lawyers were a part of a a public inquiry that the provincial government had commissioned. The inquiry sought to "get the answers we need to help ensure a tragedy such as this does not happen again" and one of the people they interviewed was the convicted murderer. She was specifically asked what SHE THOUGHT: "could have stopped, or reduced, her killing spree?"

I think she knows what she did was wrong and for what ever reason she got caught and now has to come up with a story to blame it on something else other than her own actions...independent of other situations. She is going to prison and more than likely will never get paroled so she will be the "mother hen" behind bars.

Since she acknowledged that what she did was wrong in her trial, I think we can safely assume that she knows.

The "whatever" reason she was caught, was that she VOLUNTARILY confessed her crimes after she had voluntarily entered a drug rehab program. She wasn't "caught".

You don't know anything about her psychiatrist.

Neither do you I assume.

We don't know if a different psychiatrist might have been more successful in identifying and treat what appears to be a gravely dysfunctional human being. What we do know is that the one she had, apparently failed to.

I'm not about to pass judgment on a psychiatrist when I'm aware of the fact that I hardly know anything about this specific case, about the care the physician provided and how the patient cooperated with her care.

However, without saying anything definitive about this one particular physician, let's not pretend that there aren't psychiatrists out there who only do the bare minimum, and who more or less rely solely on medications.

Serial killing isn't mental illness, it's evil.

Interesting. You sound like you live in a black-and-white world. How do you diagnose "evil"? Is there an accepted standard and a standardized test you can run?

When I see people who make claims like yours, I think they are afraid that if you admit that a perpetrator suffers some kind of mental abnormality, that somehow diminishes their responsibility for the crimes they committed.

Many violent offenders I've met have had diagnoses like antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder and a couple of them had a third one as well; sadistic personality disorder.

Is that what you mean by evil? Because trust me, their brains aren't wired like yours and mine. I'm not a psychiatrist, but my layman interpretation is that they are mentally abnormal. They do however know the differnce between right and wrong and in my personal opinion, jail and not a psychiatric facility, is the right place for this group of offenders to serve their sentence.

To me the clincher is if a person know what they did was wrong/illegal. I have no problem admitting that a person's personality disorders or other diagnoses might be a factor in the crimes they commit. In a few instances their disease might be a defense for their crime, in most cases it's not.

I think it's important to point out that the majority of people who struggle with mental illness NEVER commit violent crimes. If anything, they are more likely to become victims of it.

What I've seen in violent offenders over and over again, is what was previously classified as axis II, mainly cluster B, disorders.

She was gross just to look at, aside from everything she did. I watched the video of the police interviewing her and she just ripped a fart in front of the investigating officer.

What's your point? Should she be given a ninth life sentence for not being sufficiently "ladylike"? Farting in public is indicative of what exactly? A homicidal nature? Would her crimes have been less repugnant if she'd been physically attractive?

[Emergent, RN]

Macawake- Well said.

I've noticed here at allnurses that there is always this highly emotional response to a crime committed by a nurse. I think its probably a normal reaction when one of your own goes so far off the rails of the profession.

Yes there is evil in the world. There's is also a a lot of mental disorder. What causes someone to get a strange, emotional release from quietly overdosing someone with insulin on the job, suspending the normal moral and/or societal restraints? Probably something wrong in the brain. It's definitely not processing the world properly.

Then, in a moment of lucidity she checks herself in to get help. She has a lot of time to think, 'What could have stopped me?'. She gets off Seroqel and associates that with the clearing of the moral fog she's been in. She bemoans the fact that insulin was so readily available. 'If only it had been more difficult I would have never gone down that horrible road!'.

If she truly confessed to her friend, well maybe her friend is also mentally unbalanced. Maybe the pastor considers a confession sealed information, like a priest.

[pixierose, BSN, RN]

Macawake- Well said.

I've noticed here at allnurses that there is always this highly emotional response to a crime committed by a nurse. I think its probably a normal reaction when one of your own goes so far off the rails of the profession.

Yes there is evil in the world. There's is also a a lot of mental disorder. What causes someone to get a strange, emotional release from quietly overdosing someone with insulin on the job, suspending the normal moral and/or societal restraints? Probably something wrong in the brain. It's definitely not processing the world properly.

Then, in a moment of lucidity she checks herself in to get help. She has a lot of time to think, 'What could have stopped me?'. She gets off Seroqel and associates that with the clearing of the moral fog she's been in. She bemoans the fact that insulin was so readily available. 'If only it had been more difficult I would have never gone down that horrible road!'.

If she truly confessed to her friend, well maybe her friend is also mentally unbalanced. Maybe the pastor considers a confession sealed information, like a priest.

I think I'm just feeling a little off about posts "about a lot of mental disorder." I don't know, Emergent - the way this is phrased feels stigmatizing versus "many violent offenders I've met have had diagnoses like antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder ..." One is observant anecdotal evidence, the other?

It's not (for me) a highly emotional response to crime committed by a nurse; it's emotional to the language being used in this thread. I feel it's such a slippery slope and a disadvantage, in particular, to psychotropic medication and to the people who take it. There are correlations to SI/HI and A/V hallucinations, yes. But definitely? No. And so, so many people out there should be taking these meds but don't ... and others are taking these meds but shouldn't be. I see so many patients come into the ED and inpatient units off these meds and suicidal, or actively hallucinating ... it's heartbreaking. Their lives are a mess.

So broad statements of, "but yeah, these meds can cause xyz" can be harmful. These meds do not have pleasant side effects. I doubt anyone here wants to take them. But that's why we (as patients) need to be asking questions, not be complacent in treatment (hence beckoning to one thing our murdering nurse pointed out, a psych who didn't "probe"). But I'm not letting her off the hook her either here as well - I went through 3 psychiatrists before I found a good one that listened. Three. I know many other patients that have done the same. What stopped her here? Insurance, maybe? Who knows.

I'm still going with evil, not with "a lot of mental disorder" being her cause.

[macawake, MSN]

I've noticed here at allnurses that there is always this highly emotional response to a crime committed by a nurse. I think its probably a normal reaction when one of your own goes so far off the rails of the profession.

Yes, I think that's exactly what we're seeing.

If I'm honest, I also think that we as human beings often tend to be a bit judgy-pants and it gives us a degree of satisfaction to display our condemnation and disapproval in a public manner. That way we can all bond and feel like we're on the side "of the angels". This is probably a bit hard to admit even to oneself, as it's not an entirely attractive characteristic. I know that I've been guilty of that type of behavior.

What causes someone to get a strange, emotional release from quietly overdosing someone with insulin on the job, suspending the normal moral and/or societal restraints? Probably something wrong in the brain. It's definitely not processing the world properly.

I agree. There is something seriously wrong with coming up with the idea "that I'll try to kill someone and see if that might possibly help relieve some of all the stress I'm currently experiencing". To me, no sane mind goes there.

If you ever do this again, we'll turn you in, pastor told killer nurse | The Star

If this article is accurate, it seems that the deciding factor that made her confess to her crimes in a way she knew could not be ignored, was the fact that one of her employers had told her that they were planning to reassign her to pediatric patients, and that prospect terrified her since she realized that she could not control her impulses.

According to the article I've linked, it appears that she didn't work any more shifts as a nurse after finding this out and she subsequently checked herself into the psychiatric facility and confessed to her crimes.

I don't know if all this is accurate, but if it is it certainly points to some kind of a conscience.

Listen, I'm not defending this convicted murderer. Her crimes are vile. As I've already said, in my opinion she deserves each and every one of her eight life sentences.

But I do confess to being annoyed when people only see things as black and white, and refuse to see nuances. Yes, she committed despicable crimes. That however doesn't automatically mean that she couldn't possibly, even in a single situation, ever be motivated by something other than self-interest.

I'm still going with evil, not with "a lot of mental disorder" being her cause.

I hear you, but what is evil if not some defective wiring of the organ which guides our actions?

I don't even understand the definition of evil. To me it's a biblical concept, rather than something with clearly defined necessary components. Since it can't really be diagnosed using any objective type of criteria, the concept just isn't all that meaningful to me. Evil to me, is kind of the fallback label when we don't understand or know how to explain an action.

And so, so many people out there should be taking these meds but don't ... and others are taking these meds but shouldn't be. I see so many patients come into the ED and inpatient units off these meds and suicidal, or actively hallucinating ... it's heartbreaking. Their lives are a mess.

So broad statements of, "but yeah, these meds can cause xyz" can be harmful. These meds do not have pleasant side effects. I doubt anyone here wants to take them.

I think I understand your concern. But I don't think anyone here meant to imply that oftentimes life-saving medications made this nurse a murderer. There was something clearly wrong with how she reacted and acted when faced with stressors, and that can't be blamed on medication side effects.

I am open to the possibility that the medications she was on had an effect on how she emotionally reacted to and processed the aftermath of her own acts, but I'm entirely convinced that they didn't cause her to murder.

I agree that it's troubling when people avoid medications that could be highly beneficial for them because they fear real side effects. We see that a lot, both with somatic and psychiatric medications. We don't need side effects that aren't real, like turning into a serial murderer, added to the list of things patients fear.

[pixierose, BSN, RN]

I think that a small number of people may pose an increased risk to others, and this risk is a result of symptoms that can and do respond to treatment. Your personality disorders, for example.

But moral bankruptcy is not necessary a mental illness. All misbehavior doesn't fall under a psychological continuum, does it? Here is where "evil" may come in. It's not a biblical concept to me, but rather something you just cannot treat.

Edit to add: Macawake - even when we disagree I truly enjoy reading your posts!

[It's like a Vit C]

I personally believe she should not have been given the means to further her own narrative and agenda through this article. To claim that more regulating of insulin would have prevented her from killing people is most likely not true. Then she moves on to her "lack of oversight" in the medication room. This combination alone of supposed errors in the system just makes it seem like she is pushing for a world where all nurses are having their every move constantly monitored just to make sure they aren't off killing people. If they started monitoring insulin, you could kill with any number of "non-controlled" substances. I suppose all meds must then be diligently counted before and after each shift.

Of course, the conversation then shifts to blaming psychotropics and the prescriber of them. The fact that she said that the prescriber wasn't "probing enough" is outrageous. I suppose that she believes her medication management appointments should have looked like this...

Doc: How are you doing today?

Patient: I'm fine.

Doc: Are you sure...? To me, it seems like you may be hiding the fact that you are off killing people in your day job. Nah, forget it, here take your meds.

I'm alarmed that this person was given the time of day or even asked what could have prevented this from happening. I worry that some administrators and higher ups are going to look at these responses and be like "OH NO! We don't have constant oversight and glass walls everywhere. How will we ever will we make sure our nurses aren't serial killers."

In my opinion, if someone is intent on killing another person, there is probably little that anyone could do to stop them. Unless someone actually comes to you and tells you of their plans, how would anyone be able to perceive that someone is/was/or is going to be a killer?

[SmilingBluEyes]

Everything but: her conscience. Monster narcissist--- amoral.