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No-it would not have cost them anything like that to get me there (supposing they hadn't cancelled my job offer first)

This is what I was asking about

if the hospital can maximise their profit of margin at the lowest cost possible,then obviously they will go for that.it just so happened that some hospitals find it cost effective to recruit abroad than locally.

So if it's not cheaper, and there isn't a shortage of nurses in the US (as everyone here keeps saying) why have they done it in such vast numbers in the past? Surely it is cheaper to employ a US new grad than a foreign new grad?

I also thought that people had suggested that they were using foreign nurses as cheap labor and that the US nurses would not do the jobs for the wages being offered to foreign nurses.

This is what I find frustrating about allnurses- lack of consistency

Oh yes, even I have come across this contradiction. Hiring foreign nurses is cheaper or more expensive depending on how the poster wants to put the point across that foreign nurses are a strict no no.

The arguement reads like this:

Hiring foreign nurses are definitely much more expensive than recruiting American nurses due to the high processing fees and since salaries have to be at the same level as of an American nurse, hence it is cheaper to recruit American nurses

Then why do American hospitals try to recruit foreign nurses in such huge numbers? a demand which is only hampered right now by retrogression. Of course there is no shortage of nurses, so thats not the reason.

The reason's simple, American hospitals hire foreign nurses because it is more cost-effective for them to import cheap labour who will work for low salaries.

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Specializes in Nurse Anesthetist.
No-it would not have cost them anything like that to get me there (supposing they hadn't cancelled my job offer first)

This is what I was asking about

if the hospital can maximise their profit of margin at the lowest cost possible,then obviously they will go for that.it just so happened that some hospitals find it cost effective to recruit abroad than locally.

So if it's not cheaper, and there isn't a shortage of nurses in the US (as everyone here keeps saying) why have they done it in such vast numbers in the past? Surely it is cheaper to employ a US new grad than a foreign new grad?

I also thought that people had suggested that they were using foreign nurses as cheap labor and that the US nurses would not do the jobs for the wages being offered to foreign nurses.

This is what I find frustrating about allnurses- lack of consistency

I'm sorry but I cannot see any inconsistencies in statements made in here. And if you think there are as what you've like to believe, then I wonder why you keep on visiting this forum afterall. There are plenty of other forums out there where you can mingle with people with same thoughts as you have.

Again, you are talking about the vast numbers of nurses recruited in the PAST. Past is Past...never have to dwell on it, things had changed considerably. If employers were bringing in foreign nurses in the past, it is because their hospital's income is quite sufficient to do so. But with economic crisis, this has already been out of employer's idea. To add up, when crisis hitted america, thousands of nurses out of the profession opted to practice nursing again. Not to mention that american now is producing handfuls of new nurses. Of course they will be on top priority to get the vacancy since they are citizens, other than recruiting nurses overseas.

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Specializes in ACNP-BC, Adult Critical Care, Cardiology.
I find it intersting that some people who post are working (or not) in the US but came originally from outside the US but are so anti foreign nurses coming to work in the US now.

Maybe someone who was originally from outside the US would like to explain the differences in the US nursing job market between when they came to work/train in the US and now? Was there something in particular going on at that time that made them feel justified in taking a US nurses job off them, when apparently now anyone wishing to come and work in the US (No matter how much clinical experience they have) is not justified in doing that same thing.

I am a Philippine-born RN who moved to the US on an H1A Visa in 1995, adjusted to a permanent resident in 1999, and became a US citizen in 2004. Personally, I have nothing bad to say about foreign nurse recruitment per se. I benefitted from the practice and value diversity in my own workplace. However, situations were definitely different back in 1995 and now. For one, the H1A Visa was still available as a temporary relief to supply foreign nurse workforce to help with the nursing shortage. However, like anything related to foreign nurse recruitment, that visa was actually short-lived and was discontinued the very same year I arrived. Fortunately, nurses like me were able to adjust status at the time and remain employed legally under an EAD until we got our permanent resident visas.

My perception is that there has always been episodic changes in the flow of foreign nurses to US soil through the years. However, the US was never a wide open door for foreign nurses. There was definitely an influx of foreign nurses at the time when the ICHP's Visa Screen was introduced and many nurses were able to come under the EB3 Visa for a while. Whether the nursing shortage or the absence of it actually affects the practice of foreign nurse recruitment, the fact is that there is definitely limited visas available for foreign nurses now. It also doesn't help that the growing sentiment in the US is that unemployment is on the rise and that importing foreign workers is an injustice to the American people. Again, people are entitled to their opinions and as an American, I can relate to this point of view.

I am lucky I am here and have really advanced my career as a nurse while in the US. However, I do have a nephew in the Philippines who is a senior in a nursing program there. As much as I would love to see him practice in the US and have the same fortune as his uncle, I am afraid his chances are quite slim at the current time. Would I prevent him from applying to work in the US? that's his choice to make and not mine. All I can say to him is to be prepared that things may not happen the way he wants it to.

It sounds like you have an offer of sponsorship with an H1B Visa. Correct me if I'm wrong but more power to you if this is the case. I hope it does come through for you. Looking back as I did arrive on a temporary working visa myself, I personally think this kind of visa presents many future problems for a foreign nurse. One, it is temporary and can get cancelled at any time. Two, the foreign nurse is under an exclusive sponsorship by the facility and is under the mercy of the sponsoring facility. But then again, I was in a similar situation as you hoping to be able to get out of my country of birth and would take whatever will help me get to that goal.

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Specializes in NICU, PICU, PCVICU and peds oncology.

I think perhaps pinoyNP has answered the question of why foreign recruitment is viewed as "cheaper" than local recruitment.

"I personally think this kind of visa presents many future problems for a foreign nurse. One, it is temporary and can get cancelled at any time. Two, the foreign nurse is under an exclusive sponsorship by the facility and is under the mercy of the sponsoring facility."

While the prospective employer may have to pay for immigration costs and so on to the tune of ~$10,000, and they have to pay the recruited nurse the same amount of money as a local nurse, they will have a "captive" employee who may be just intimidated enough to work unhealthy amounts of overtime at straight time rates so as not to anger the overseer. They also may believe they'll have a more malleable employee who will accept whatever they're told about working conditions and labour laws at face value for fear of losing their sponsorship. Call me a cynic, but I see a variation on that theme in my own unit. When you don't know any different, it's easy to believe that what you're seeing happen is the way it's supposed to be.

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Specializes in Medical and general practice now LTC.

Can we keep this to topic of Ombudsman and recommendation. Further posts off topic will be removed

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Specializes in ACNP-BC, Adult Critical Care, Cardiology.
I think perhaps pinoyNP has answered the question of why foreign recruitment is viewed as "cheaper" than local recruitment.

"I personally think this kind of visa presents many future problems for a foreign nurse. One, it is temporary and can get cancelled at any time. Two, the foreign nurse is under an exclusive sponsorship by the facility and is under the mercy of the sponsoring facility."

While the prospective employer may have to pay for immigration costs and so on to the tune of ~$10,000, and they have to pay the recruited nurse the same amount of money as a local nurse, they will have a "captive" employee who may be just intimidated enough to work unhealthy amounts of overtime at straight time rates so as not to anger the overseer. They also may believe they'll have a more malleable employee who will accept whatever they're told about working conditions and labour laws at face value for fear of losing their sponsorship. Call me a cynic, but I see a variation on that theme in my own unit. When you don't know any different, it's easy to believe that what you're seeing happen is the way it's supposed to be.

...and this is a fact that the nursing community in the US is well aware of. In fact, the American Nurses Association released a position statement late this year on the Prevention of Unethical Recruitment of Foreign-Educated Nurses. ( http://nursingworld.org/FunctionalMenuCategories/MediaResources/PressReleases/2008PR/ANAAdvancesthePreventionofUnethicalRecruitmentofForeigneducatedNurses.aspx).

It is important for people on both sides of the foreign nurse recruitment issue to be informed and learn the issues in order to decide objectively on what's right for them. This is definitely an emotionally-charged issue for both sides. We need to throw emotions and preconceptions about racism and discrimination out the door. The truth hurts - nurses, particularly from the Philippines, will find that working in the US is a world of difference from the poor working conditions they are used to in the Philippines. Exploitation can definitely occur and many will probably not realize that it's even happening. On the other hand, there is definitely a real threat of jobs being taken away from Americans (or Canadians) if employers continue to recruit nurses from foreign countries under conditions where the foreign nurses are under the mercy of the employers' rules. I'm glad that people are taking about it and I hope a happy medium is arrived at.

Unfortunately, I think it's almost too late for that now. I see foreign nurse recruitment as a moot point at least in my area of the US. Nurses here have realized that they are not immune to the effects of the poor economy and some are losing their jobs due to hospital closures and staffing cuts. What hospital or healthcare facility would even consider hiring foreign nurses here these days?

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Also in the past Philippine nurse has housing provide via their employer. Since these nurses left their families at home they didn't have to worry about picking kids up at day care or doing house work when they get home.

Since these nurses were not experienced to the area, they didn't have to be charge nurse or take the most complex patients.

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Specializes in Medical and general practice now LTC.

Posts regarding the Philippine nurse training has been moved to a thread as off topic to this one. Can be found here Has Philippine nurse training changed over the years

Please keep to topic

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Specializes in ICU,ANTICOAG,ACUTE STROKE,EDU,RESEARCH.
...and this is a fact that the nursing community in the US is well aware of. In fact, the American Nurses Association released a position statement late this year on the Prevention of Unethical Recruitment of Foreign-Educated Nurses. ( http://nursingworld.org/FunctionalMenuCategories/MediaResources/PressReleases/2008PR/ANAAdvancesthePreventionofUnethicalRecruitmentofForeigneducatedNurses.aspx).

It is important for people on both sides of the foreign nurse recruitment issue to be informed and learn the issues in order to decide objectively on what's right for them. This is definitely an emotionally-charged issue for both sides. We need to throw emotions and preconceptions about racism and discrimination out the door. The truth hurts - nurses, particularly from the Philippines, will find that working in the US is a world of difference from the poor working conditions they are used to in the Philippines. Exploitation can definitely occur and many will probably not realize that it's even happening. On the other hand, there is definitely a real threat of jobs being taken away from Americans (or Canadians) if employers continue to recruit nurses from foreign countries under conditions where the foreign nurses are under the mercy of the employers' rules. I'm glad that people are taking about it and I hope a happy medium is arrived at.

Unfortunately, I think it's almost too late for that now. I see foreign nurse recruitment as a moot point at least in my area of the US. Nurses here have realized that they are not immune to the effects of the poor economy and some are losing their jobs due to hospital closures and staffing cuts. What hospital or healthcare facility would even consider hiring foreign nurses here these days?

But you are not looking at it from both sides-just from the side you are on now.Again you weren't always on that side and nursing in the US is still classed as a shortage occupation, and there are still nursing jobs advertised in many states that they cannot fill with US nurses. So why shouldn't we apply and they recruit us? The way I see it there are 2 options,employ an experienced foreign nurse, or do without and let the patient care suffer.They cannot complain about RN to patient ratios and not employ foreign nurses too.

You cannot substitute the words "foreign nurses"for "phillipino nurses" and talk in generalisations.Again, as I asked before,what is so different in nursing now in the US compared to when you went to the US? Did people wonder then if they were taking a job from a US citizen,or did you just take the visas and run?

I think if you look at the projections the nursing shortage is due to get worse, not better

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I feel that the issue is more of control by the hospitals. As long as they can recruit foreign nurses, they can say to American nurses, "if you don't want to take 10 patients, or more, for $20 an hour, there are ship loads of foreign nurses who will jump at the chance to do so. It makes us unimportant to them when we can be replaced by foreign nurses and makes us feel that they can control us. That is the issue- control. JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

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Specializes in ACNP-BC, Adult Critical Care, Cardiology.
But you are not looking at it from both sides-just from the side you are on now.Again you weren't always on that side and nursing in the US is still classed as a shortage occupation, and there are still nursing jobs advertised in many states that they cannot fill with US nurses. So why shouldn't we apply and they recruit us?

Aside from the job postings you are seeing in your country and websites that list nursing as a shortage occupation, can you give me more data that support the fact that the US can not fill it's own nursing workforce by hiring local nurses? The way I see it, there may definitely be pockets here and there where the demand for nurses far exceed the availability of qualified applicants. But I know that in the metro area where I live, nursing job openings have definitely dwindled. Majority of the hospital corporations here who are leaders in the field and were once financially strong are now on a hiring freeze.

The way I see it there are 2 options,employ an experienced foreign nurse, or do without and let the patient care suffer.They cannot complain about RN to patient ratios and not employ foreign nurses too.

Again, I don't see anyone complaining about patient to nurse ratios here. In fact, nurses are being sent home because the floors are low in patient census. I work in an ICU as a nurse practitioner where we've always enforced the 1:1 or 1:2 patient to RN ratios. Back when there were many job openings, the positions were actually for entry-level nurses in Med-Surg floors. The highly specialized units like OR, ICU, ER, or PACU never really face a shortage of applicants as many nurses from the Med-Surg and general patient care units apply there after they have obtained a few years of nursing experience.

You cannot substitute the words "foreign nurses"for "phillipino nurses" and talk in generalisations.

Talk about generalizations! How presumptious of you to assume that every nurse coming from the Philippines is inexperienced. I came to the USA with 2 1/2 years of ICU experience in the Neurosurgery field. I may not have knowledge of high tech equipment but I sure knew how to assess a patient and figure out if their ICP is rising. Since I came to the US, I have taken every single licensure and certification exam on my first attempt. I guess your statement pretty much tells me that you feel it's OK to hire English nurses but God forbid those Filipino nurses from coming to the US. For the record, I have never said "do not apply to the US" to any foreign nurse.

Again, as I asked before,what is so different in nursing now in the US compared to when you went to the US? Did people wonder then if they were taking a job from a US citizen,or did you just take the visas and run?

I think if you look at the projections the nursing shortage is due to get worse, not better.

Well, the unit where I worked as a new nurse from the Philippines was definitely short-staffed when I arrived. It was a revolving door for RN's. Whether conditions could have been improved so that more local nurses would have stayed is out of the question now. There are definitely enough nurses working there now, Filipino or not. They are not hurting for new nurses.

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Specializes in ICU,ANTICOAG,ACUTE STROKE,EDU,RESEARCH.

aside from the job postings you are seeing in your country and websites that list nursing as a shortage occupation, can you give me more data that support the fact that the us can not fill it's own nursing workforce by hiring local nurses? the way i see it, there may definitely be pockets here and there where the demand for nurses far exceed the availability of qualified applicants. but i know that in the metro area where i live, nursing job openings have definitely dwindled. majority of the hospital corporations here who are leaders in the field and were once financially strong are now on a hiring freeze.

i haven't seen any websites in the uk with job postings for the us-but there are some agencies advertising in the nursing press over here-personally wouldn't go with an agency.there are jobsites in the us with nursing vacancies for a variety of healthcare companies in many states.i didn't say that hospitals couldn't recruit staff from the us nursing pool in all states. if you visit hospital/health service provider websites there are jobs that have been listed for may months (it gives you the posting date)-maybe they are just continuously advertising for some posts that are at the lower end of the career ladder that they consatntly need nurses for, but someof the posts are nps,cns and other advanced level positions.

it is the us dept of labor that lists nursing as a schedule a shortage occupation.

again, i don't see anyone complaining about patient to nurse ratios here. in fact, nurses are being sent home because the floors are low in patient census. i work in an icu as a nurse practitioner where we've always enforced the 1:1 or 1:2 patient to rn ratios. back when there were many job openings, the positions were actually for entry-level nurses in med-surg floors. the highly specialized units like or, icu, er, or pacu never really face a shortage of applicants as many nurses from the med-surg and general patient care units apply there after they have obtained a few years of nursing experience.

i don't think it's fair to look at icu where there are set patient to nurse ratios, but if nurses on the wards are being sent home because there are low numbers of patients then maybe there are too many healthcare providers in the area which seems like bad business sense. why are there too few patients on the floors? btw -this would never happen here in uk-our hospital is always at 90-98% capacity, but then that is the nhs. again you are talking just about your metro area,whereas i know from postings on here that sometimes rn to patient ratios are 1:8 on floors.

talk about generalizations! how presumptious of you to assume that every nurse coming from the philippines is inexperienced. i came to the usa with 2 1/2 years of icu experience in the neurosurgery field. i may not have knowledge of high tech equipment but i sure knew how to assess a patient and figure out if their icp is rising. since i came to the us, i have taken every single licensure and certification exam on my first attempt. i guess your statement pretty much tells me that you feel it's ok to hire english nurses but god forbid those filipino nurses from coming to the us. for the record, i have never said "do not apply to the us" to any foreign nurse

now you are reading what is not there and putting words in my mouth.

i never suggested that all filipino nurses had no experience,what i was trying to say was that there is a huge difference in the attitude,culture and reasons for nurses from different countries that are wanting to come to the us and that you can't bunch everyone together. i don't think that anyone could deny that there have been huge numbers of filipino nurses go to the us in the last ?20 years, and on this forum it's too easy for people to assume everyone is in the same boat.

well, the unit where i worked as a new nurse from the philippines was definitely short-staffed when i arrived. it was a revolving door for rn's. whether conditions could have been improved so that more local nurses would have stayed is out of the question now. there are definitely enough nurses working there now, filipino or not. they are not hurting for new nurses.

again you are talking about your unit only and you do admit that you do not honestly know if even back then they could have done more to recruit from the us.

so there is no difference now really,except that the economy has changed and maybe some healthcare businesses who have had it good for so long are going to have to clip there wings and reduce staffing levels to a more realistic level.

if they are sending nurses home due to lack of patients i wonder how they are managing to balance the accounts?

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