The Overly UN-zealous Hospitalist

Nurses are by NO means physicians. The roles are very different, and yet they tend to overlap consistently in modern healthcare. Relationships are becoming strained and tired as demands grow. Small seeds of mistrust have been planted and are festering. Health care needs to SLOW DOWN and see the bigger picture. Without a pause, danger sets in. Nurses Announcements Archive Article

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It's 0730 and bedside rounds with the night staff and day nurses have completed. Morning labs have been reviewed and the rush has begun. A new physician has strolled onto the scene with his coffee and nonchalant smile. "Good morning" he pleasantly addresses to the passers-by. We smile awkwardly as we rush to meet morning needs (of which are always so great). Orders start popping up as I read through each one. My brows furrow together as I see some oddities that make me uncomfortable. I head to the Doc box (where our physicians reside) and inquire on some of the new tasks I've been encouraged to complete via CPOE (online orders). "Are you sure that the patient with the COPD should truly be on beta blockers? It's typically contraindicated," or "I understand that you just ordered that fluid bolus on the patient with the low blood pressure, but they do have heart failure with renal failure, I think it may be in their best interest to decrease their Lisinopril." He looked at me with bugged out eyes and waved his hand dismissively. 'I'll look at it later."

Later came a lot faster than usual. I paged the hospitalist again to request orders for physical therapy, case management for skilled nursing placement, medication corrections, medication reconciliations from the night before and writing scripts for discharges. Text page after phone page and back again, I am back at ground zero with empty hands. So, I page again and again. None of these are returned. At this time I am allowed to STAT page. So I do. A monotone voice answers, "Doctor?" 'Yes?' Then I progress to mention what I've been paging about for the last five hours. 'I was already there this morning, I am leaving at three, so the night physician can take care of that.' I press and press. He hangs up.

My blood is starting to boil. Families have questions, patients want answers and yet I cannot bridge the gap. My charge is notified and she does what's in her jurisdiction. Still no response, no meds corrected, patients are growing more frustrated and families are now angry. I page and page, the end of shift comes. I explain my dilemma to the night nurse who gives me a talking to, seeing as I "sat on these issues" all day long and "didn't do anything about it". Needless to say, I'm speechless and defeated from the hard work I attempted, and was yet spat on for trying.

Unfortunately, the next day was the same. I was told to fix things myself by this doctor, or to page someone else to take care of the orders because he was 'just too busy'. Despite his busyness, despite his idea of workload and time management, I was trying to explain that a lack of treatment for these patients would increase their hospital stay as well as (in the end) screw us with reimbursement services if we did not provide. Another blank stare, 'I have to go' was all I got.

I watched those white coat tails billow behind his short frame as I felt my trust wither and flilt away with him. I did the only thing I knew, I contacted the chief of medicine. Seeing as my charge nurse was aware, at the time was without management, the next best thing was the Chief of Medicine. He showed up in person not even thirty minutes later. He corrected what was missing, adjusted the meds that fell short, or overtreated in dangerous ways and then thanked me for my diligence.

I was pleased for the action that had been encouraged from my so-called 'tattle-taling' but I still felt as though I had accomplished nothing. It shouldn't be the nurse to correct your dangerous orders. Yes, we are a checks and balances group. It is often a good thing to have more hands in the pot in order that things can get done. But when issues arise and your choice is to act to sit quietly, sit quietly should not be the option you choose.

For nurses, this is a frequent occurrence. I know that we are all imperfect and things often need fixing, titrating, or medications are given because of a 'greater good' outcome. But it's a lack of action that will continue to endanger our licenses, our ability to assist patients in their ultimate care and to act as an advocate.

If we speak up and suggest and are incorrect, teach us. Otherwise, we look to you as doctors to act and please address concerns and issues as they arise.

It's why we are all here, isn't it?

In her defense, she did end the article with this statement: "If we speak up and suggest and are incorrect, teach us. Otherwise, we look to you as doctors to act and please address concerns and issues as they arise."

Now, I think YOU sound like an all knowing, pretentious medical provider who looks down upon the nurses as "less than".... but in many hospitals, especially private hospitals where the MDs are CONTRACT employees, the nurses are tasked with managing compliance issues, reimbursement issues, etc, and MUST keep the doctors in line - the nurses are on the front lines.... they don't get to answer pages as their leisure. Have you ever worked as a bedside nurse??? I have done both, and even both at the same time. APRN during the week and RN at the bedside on the weekends. As more and more RNs are going straight through, especially with the proprietary schools, becoming DNPs without having ever really practiced as an RN, the communication, and culture is becoming ever more lacking. APRNs should be nurse leaders.... meaning that they should be looking at the RNs who are on the front lines and truly examining their concerns - as they are seeking ways to meet their patient's needs, keep the MDs happy, keep the administration from coming down on them, minimizing the patients' families' frustration, and just stay afloat and maybe even have a second or two to go urinate at least once throughout a shift....I feel her frustration, and as an APRN I would look more deeply into her concerns, because the article is loaded with frustration and helplessness. I didn't feel that there was any sense of "knowitallism". Just my humble opinion.

And I see it as the education paradox. Years ago, nurses were encouraged to pursue higher degrees, with the hope that they would improve patient care through their advanced degree. Problem is, the job is still the same menial job it always has been. This article is a personal attack, by a nurse, on a hospitalist. She then extrapolates this to this overwhelming sense of hyperbole, and dramatic presentation that ends up being all about how menial she thinks her job really is.

But, the main theme of this article, is a personal quibble between this nurse and the way she feels perceived. I can tell you the reason why most providers don't stop and "educate", or even discuss patients with nurses, is because there just isn't time. And it doesn't make a difference. It is not uncommon for me to see 10 patients in the morning, go to the office for 2 or 3 hours, for 12 more patients, then to another hospital for 10 or 12 more. That is a lot of nurses to appease in a day. So most providers, as you guys probably see, jam into the dictation room, pop-in a few orders, and leave out the back stairwell. It's not bad medicine, its efficient.

Yesterday I had to give a medication I've never given, nor heard of. So, I looked it up, checked contraindications, of which there were two meds the patient was on. The patient had been receiving all these meds daily for over 30 days. These are all psych meds, prescribed by our in-house psychiatrist (I'm on a med surg tele floor, this patience was a psych hold). Instead of the physician, I called one of our pharmacists. He told me that it's really not an absolute contraindication, it can prolong the QT wave. Earlier in the day our psychiatrist ordered and reviewed an EKG on the patient. I made a note on the details and gave the med. Sometimes there are other ways to get a problem solved. If I had called the physician, he would have been annoyed, rightfully so. He knew exactly what the potential issues were and was monitoring them.

Specializes in Med/Surg, Academics.
And I see it as the education paradox. Years ago, nurses were encouraged to pursue higher degrees, with the hope that they would improve patient care through their advanced degree. Problem is, the job is still the same menial job it always has been. This article is a personal attack, by a nurse, on a hospitalist. She then extrapolates this to this overwhelming sense of hyperbole, and dramatic presentation that ends up being all about how menial she thinks her job really is.

But, the main theme of this article, is a personal quibble between this nurse and the way she feels perceived. I can tell you the reason why most providers don't stop and "educate", or even discuss patients with nurses, is because there just isn't time. And it doesn't make a difference. It is not uncommon for me to see 10 patients in the morning, go to the office for 2 or 3 hours, for 12 more patients, then to another hospital for 10 or 12 more. That is a lot of nurses to appease in a day. So most providers, as you guys probably see, jam into the dictation room, pop-in a few orders, and leave out the back stairwell. It's not bad medicine, its efficient.

If you see critical meds being held all the time, and you've concluded the nurses are falsifying documentation, that's bad nursing. Nowhere have you said you deigned to speak with the charge nurses, team leaders, or individual nurses about these observations. That's bad medicine.

I have never ever seen a nurse hold a med outside of parameters. The fact that there are parameters tells me the provider has thought it through. On a cardiac floor, an SBP of 90-100 doesn't faze me unless it's a doesn't fit the trend. There's something else going on here, and it may be that nurses don't trust you. That doesn't excuse going against orders or laziness, but it could be an explanation. With your apparent attitude toward floor nurses, it wouldn't surprise me, though.

Specializes in ICU.
I knew someone was going to say this. In the case of the nitro, and frequently what I would find when I talked to my patient, was that they never actually said that. They would have nitro paste from the ER, but no one ever came in to put anymore on. Charted it though, Hmm. I see this way too often to think every patient is lying, and every nurse is charting correctly.

When my beta blocker order is written, hold for SBP

It's hard to imagine holding nitro, of all things, because that's the easiest thing to give of absolutely anything in the hospital. There's no waiting around for the LOL to swish the pill in her mouth for 30 minutes before finally swallowing - just throw it on, tape the paper, and go about your business. Stranger things have happened, I suppose.

It's wonderful that you put specific parameters on things ahead of time. That's my biggest pet peeve with providers - when they don't, a BP/HR is borderline, and I have to call for clarification and get the exasperated sigh.

If you see critical meds being held all the time, and you've concluded the nurses are falsifying documentation, that's bad nursing. Nowhere have you said you deigned to speak with the charge nurses, team leaders, or individual nurses about these observations. That's bad medicine.

I have never ever seen a nurse hold a med outside of parameters. The fact that there are parameters tells me the provider has thought it through. On a cardiac floor, an SBP of 90-100 doesn't faze me unless it's a doesn't fit the trend. There's something else going on here, and it may be that nurses don't trust you. That doesn't excuse going against orders or laziness, but it could be an explanation. With your apparent attitude toward floor nurses, it wouldn't surprise me, though.

A few posts back, a nurse makes this statement, which speaks volumes about his/her attitude towards the written order.

"Low BP with a systolic of 102? I might or might not give a beta blocker at this number dependent on the diastolic. If the diastolic is 38, making the MAP 58, the patient could be having problems with end-organ perfusion d/t hypotension and giving a beta blocker would make the problem worse. "

A nurse is not allowed this kind of judgement. Withholding beta blockers is risky. And the risk increases if a patient is on higher doses, and longer periods of time. That nurse should call for clarification on this. That's why I find this statement very disturbing, and unfortunately, all too common.

As far as trust, I don't operate in a vacuum. I work with a large group that is respected, and share rounding on all of our patients. I will say that some facilities are worse than others, and some days (shifts) are worse than others. Too difficult to fix, but frustrating, nonetheless.

And I see it as the education paradox. Years ago, nurses were encouraged to pursue higher degrees, with the hope that they would improve patient care through their advanced degree. Problem is, the job is still the same menial job it always has been.

This paragraph doesn't exactly exude respect towards nurses and the job they do, does it?

Definition of menial in English:

adjective

1(Of work) not requiring much skill and lacking prestige: menial factory jobs

menial

adj1. consisting of or occupied with work requiring little skill, esp domestic duties such as cleaning

2. of, involving, or befitting servants

3. servile

This reminds me to take a minute to thank my lucky stars that I work with physicians who actually value the knowledge and skills that I bring to the table.

By the way, I don't see my job as requiring little skill. My patients would really be in serious trouble if that was the case.

The post "I bet people love working with you" was one of the least constructive comments I've seen on AN. It didn't add any relevant information to the debate and it wasn't particularly respectful. Completely unnecessary in my opinion. I expect a person who's had the benefit of higher education to be able to argue their point in a more professional way.

Specializes in Med/Surg, Academics.
A few posts back, a nurse makes this statement, which speaks volumes about his/her attitude towards the written order.

"Low BP with a systolic of 102? I might or might not give a beta blocker at this number dependent on the diastolic. If the diastolic is 38, making the MAP 58, the patient could be having problems with end-organ perfusion d/t hypotension and giving a beta blocker would make the problem worse. "

A nurse is not allowed this kind of judgement. Withholding beta blockers is risky. And the risk increases if a patient is on higher doses, and longer periods of time. That nurse should call for clarification on this. That's why I find this statement very disturbing, and unfortunately, all too common.

As far as trust, I don't operate in a vacuum. I work with a large group that is respected, and share rounding on all of our patients. I will say that some facilities are worse than others, and some days (shifts) are worse than others. Too difficult to fix, but frustrating, nonetheless.

Now you sound lazy. You just want to go in, pop in a few orders, and leave. The other day, I saw a PA do just that. The patient had a few questions that I couldn't answer, and I told her I would get information from the primary IM team. In walks the attending's PA, she started directing questions to him, he mumbled, "I'll check into it" while listening to lung sounds, and, as the patient continued, walked out. That's the way I envision you doing your job, based on your own words.

If your patients are endangered by nurses who aren't doing their jobs, you must act. Talk to the nurse manager about the trends you are seeing. But, no, you'd rather come here, complain about nurses and their menial job, and just say, "frustrating." Didn't you, a few posts back, claim that one of the only two kinds of nurses would sit back quietly and stew about everything perceived as wrong? Aren't you doing just that?

Specializes in ICU.
A nurse is not allowed this kind of judgement. Withholding beta blockers is risky. And the risk increases if a patient is on higher doses, and longer periods of time. That nurse should call for clarification on this. That's why I find this statement very disturbing, and unfortunately, all too common.

I wish I didn't have to make those kinds of decisions. I agree that technically speaking, those sort of decisions are for the providers. If I have a question, I call. I give the hospitalist 45 minutes to respond, then I page again. If I haven't gotten a response in another 45 minutes, I page again, and again after another 45 minutes. Unfortunately, if I have gone through three 45 minute increments already, it's been more than two hours since the first time I paged. If that beta blocker is q6h, there's going to be a pretty good chance a couple of doses are going to be given too close together if I give it then, so it ends up getting held by default.

Now, if I give it when I have a question about the MAP, but technically it doesn't meet the provider's standards to hold it and I never get a response back, and the patient goes into AKI, part of that blame is going to fall on me. There's always someone that will mention, "Oh, your new kidney failure is related to the low blood pressure you've been having," and some alert patients might just put two and two together that we gave medicine that can lower blood pressure, and then I'm in the middle of a lawsuit. That's not a place I want to be. Following a provider order does not protect me from lawsuits if there's a chance I knew better but did something anyway just because a provider wanted me to.

How did a perfectly nice post segue into three pages of bickering?

Geez.

Specializes in Med/Surg, Academics.
How did a perfectly nice post segue into three pages of bickering?

Geez.

This made me chuckle. Yes, we are bickering, but it isn't a segue. I look at it as the OPs points being demonstrated. A provider here has shown a dismissive attitude toward nursing, which is exactly one of the themes in the OP.

Specializes in Post Anesthesia.

A very accurate description of why I can't wait to get out of nursing. I have so little time to provide "Nursing Care" for my patients because I'm the "Check and Balance" for overworked hospitalists who know the nurse is the bottom line when it comes to patient safety and put forth the minimum effort to understand and treat the patients individual condition. In addition I might add that I am tired of being the voice recognition app for our CPOE system. Verbal and phone orders are forbidden except in case of emergency, but 80% of the time I still have to go into the CPOE and enter the basic physician orders for them. They are in the hospital, sometimes sitting in front of me at their computer, but still expect me to decipher their random mumblings and enter the correct orders into the system. We have several physicians that still write out their entire orders and expect the nursing staff to enter them into the CPOE. Being a safety check on orders is time consuming and frustrating, but it is part of my job, being a secretary who can transcribe physicians orders with legal responsibility for the outcome isn't and I resent it.

In 1977 RN magazine had an article "Nurses Eat Their Young". This thread certainly shows that.

They repeated the article in 2003 to new nurses who just didn't believe that was possible.

This is short and to the point...Nurses Eat their Young and are very mean to other nurses./

And the higher the degrees the meaner the ********** to others