The Overly UN-zealous Hospitalist

Nurses are by NO means physicians. The roles are very different, and yet they tend to overlap consistently in modern healthcare. Relationships are becoming strained and tired as demands grow. Small seeds of mistrust have been planted and are festering. Health care needs to SLOW DOWN and see the bigger picture. Without a pause, danger sets in. Nurses Announcements Archive Article

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It's 0730 and bedside rounds with the night staff and day nurses have completed. Morning labs have been reviewed and the rush has begun. A new physician has strolled onto the scene with his coffee and nonchalant smile. "Good morning" he pleasantly addresses to the passers-by. We smile awkwardly as we rush to meet morning needs (of which are always so great). Orders start popping up as I read through each one. My brows furrow together as I see some oddities that make me uncomfortable. I head to the Doc box (where our physicians reside) and inquire on some of the new tasks I've been encouraged to complete via CPOE (online orders). "Are you sure that the patient with the COPD should truly be on beta blockers? It's typically contraindicated," or "I understand that you just ordered that fluid bolus on the patient with the low blood pressure, but they do have heart failure with renal failure, I think it may be in their best interest to decrease their Lisinopril." He looked at me with bugged out eyes and waved his hand dismissively. 'I'll look at it later."

Later came a lot faster than usual. I paged the hospitalist again to request orders for physical therapy, case management for skilled nursing placement, medication corrections, medication reconciliations from the night before and writing scripts for discharges. Text page after phone page and back again, I am back at ground zero with empty hands. So, I page again and again. None of these are returned. At this time I am allowed to STAT page. So I do. A monotone voice answers, "Doctor?" 'Yes?' Then I progress to mention what I've been paging about for the last five hours. 'I was already there this morning, I am leaving at three, so the night physician can take care of that.' I press and press. He hangs up.

My blood is starting to boil. Families have questions, patients want answers and yet I cannot bridge the gap. My charge is notified and she does what's in her jurisdiction. Still no response, no meds corrected, patients are growing more frustrated and families are now angry. I page and page, the end of shift comes. I explain my dilemma to the night nurse who gives me a talking to, seeing as I "sat on these issues" all day long and "didn't do anything about it". Needless to say, I'm speechless and defeated from the hard work I attempted, and was yet spat on for trying.

Unfortunately, the next day was the same. I was told to fix things myself by this doctor, or to page someone else to take care of the orders because he was 'just too busy'. Despite his busyness, despite his idea of workload and time management, I was trying to explain that a lack of treatment for these patients would increase their hospital stay as well as (in the end) screw us with reimbursement services if we did not provide. Another blank stare, 'I have to go' was all I got.

I watched those white coat tails billow behind his short frame as I felt my trust wither and flilt away with him. I did the only thing I knew, I contacted the chief of medicine. Seeing as my charge nurse was aware, at the time was without management, the next best thing was the Chief of Medicine. He showed up in person not even thirty minutes later. He corrected what was missing, adjusted the meds that fell short, or overtreated in dangerous ways and then thanked me for my diligence.

I was pleased for the action that had been encouraged from my so-called 'tattle-taling' but I still felt as though I had accomplished nothing. It shouldn't be the nurse to correct your dangerous orders. Yes, we are a checks and balances group. It is often a good thing to have more hands in the pot in order that things can get done. But when issues arise and your choice is to act to sit quietly, sit quietly should not be the option you choose.

For nurses, this is a frequent occurrence. I know that we are all imperfect and things often need fixing, titrating, or medications are given because of a 'greater good' outcome. But it's a lack of action that will continue to endanger our licenses, our ability to assist patients in their ultimate care and to act as an advocate.

If we speak up and suggest and are incorrect, teach us. Otherwise, we look to you as doctors to act and please address concerns and issues as they arise.

It's why we are all here, isn't it?

Specializes in Med/Surg, Academics.
So many physicians make so many mistakes, even lethal ones, and yet the nurse gets the blame. The physicians are the ones who gets the big bucks. True, some RNs do earn a good wage, but not enough to take all that you mention. It's a shame that the nurses have to be subjected to such nonsense. You nurses are all heroes who care as you do. IMHO, you deserve a medal.

Another thing is Physicians should not be allowed to lay so much responsibility on the nurses' shoulders. Your licenses are treasures to protect. I believe Physicians should be held accountable also. :up: Kudos to you dear, for being so eloquent and thorough. You probably save numerous people from either dying or getting extremely ill.

Now, let's not swing all the other way. There is a happy medium between providers thinking nurses should keep their mouths shut and the stereotype of "hero nurses with capes, swooping in to save pts from providers' mistakes.

I'd be happy if providers and nurses were recognized for being on the same team with a common goal and actually speak to each other as such.

It's exactly this kind of attitude that does not belong in nursing. She gave a polite well reasoned answer to your response, she wasn't rude yet you take it to a personal insulting level. I would be greatful to work with a nurse that does her due diligence in making sure her patients are taken care of.

Am I the only one who thought the original comment was sincere???

Honestly, every time I see someone on a chat board castigate a nurse for how they spoke to a physician, I cringe. I worked in the corporate world for about 15 years before becoming a nurse. I saw a lot of dysfunctional workplaces. I saw people--even (especially) upper level management make ego-based decisions that were bad for their companies. I saw a lot of gender discrimination, as I was in a location that was largely still stuck in the 1950's when it came to gender roles. But I NEVER saw anyone chastised for not sufficiently stroking someone's ego when addressing an issue that they thought really needed to be addressed. Most physicians can or should be able to recognize a patient-related concern brought to their attention as simply that, and not an assault on their authority or knowledge. We do physicians, and even more so the overall nursing culture, a grave disservice when we perpetuate the notion that their egos are too fragile to handle valid concerns because we have not been deferential enough. It is that culture that contributes, in my opinion, to lateral violence in nursing as well.

It's not about earnings. It's not about education. It's not about gender. It's about simple respect for human beings.

Ok so there are some positive and a few negative remarks here.

I didn't read any tone into what you wrote, but it seems like persistence paid off. I have had too many occassions to call our medical director for orders when various doctors refuse to return calls.

What I learned to be very prepared with all the questions that I may have prior to speaking with the docs. And, I let all the other nurses on the floor know that I am calling doctor so-and-so if they have orders they may need from him/her. I find that this expedites the process and the docs call back faster because they KNOW that our facility or floor of nurses are ready with all the questions he/she may have (ie labs, vitals, etc.) prior to his return call and without his/her prompting (what are their vitals? Potassium levels etc).

And I persist. I do not allow half answers and I repeat back orders or question ones that do not seem correct. What I get from that is doctors that do not rush me off the phone and respect when I call them or question them. They understand that it is the patient that is the priority and know that I will have their backs.

Best of luck to you.

It's exactly this kind of attitude that does not belong in nursing. She gave a polite well reasoned answer to your response, she wasn't rude yet you take it to a personal insulting level. I would be greatful to work with a nurse that does her due diligence in making sure her patients are taken care of.

She didn't give a polite, well reasoned anything. I have been working in healthcare almost 30 years, and I have seen nurses like this come and go. They are generally one of two types. 1) They quietly sit and stew about everything they perceive is wrong, or 2) They go after everybody, all the time, for anything they perceive is wrong. They are never good team players.

Now if she had said to the hospitalist, "Did you mean to restart Mr. Bill Board's metformin today, or hold it for a full 48 hours after his cardiac cath?". Or "Mr. John Jumpingjack's Lantus is still on hold from surgery, but he ate all of his meals yesterday, do you want to restart that for tonight?"

Neither of the examples she gave would or should be concerns. And I imagine she feels that physicians don't listen to her because she warns of things that aren't concerns. So it would be pretty hard to take her suggestions seriously.

Are you sure that the patient with the COPD should truly be on beta blockers? It's typically contraindicated,” or I understand that you just ordered that fluid bolus on the patient with the low blood pressure, but they do have heart failure with renal failure, I think it may be in their best interest to decrease their Lisinopril.”

If you said either of these to me the way you have written it, I would try to politely dismiss you as well.

In your article you come across as a know-it-all who knows too little. It's too bad you think you did the right thing.

I find this disturbing that you would put your own ego over the health and welfare of the patient. If you or any doctor is in this field for accolades or to feel higher than thou, it would be more appreciated if you would find another line of work. That way, those who do have their patients best interest at heart and are truly advocates can get the care that they need without the ego tripping.

I bet people love working with you.

Ugh, you are that type...I bet people absolutely love working with you as well. I'll bet no one can tell you anything...speaking of knowing it all. I read the original post and immediately got what the author was saying and did in no way feel like she was being a know it all. You missed something in her post and when she goes to further clarify her position you come back with "I bet people love working with you." Really? That was a very mature response.

She didn't give a polite, well reasoned anything. I have been working in healthcare almost 30 years, and I have seen nurses like this come and go. They are generally one of two types. 1) They quietly sit and stew about everything they perceive is wrong, or 2) They go after everybody, all the time, for anything they perceive is wrong. They are never good team players.

Now if she had said to the hospitalist, "Did you mean to restart Mr. Bill Board's metformin today, or hold it for a full 48 hours after his cardiac cath?". Or "Mr. John Jumpingjack's Lantus is still on hold from surgery, but he ate all of his meals yesterday, do you want to restart that for tonight?"

Neither of the examples she gave would or should be concerns. And I imagine she feels that physicians don't listen to her because she warns of things that aren't concerns. So it would be pretty hard to take her suggestions seriously.

Actually she did give a polite and well thought out and concerned explanation of how this scenario went. I'm sorry but your 30 years in healthcare is skewed by your attitude so you cannot, with absolute certainty, lump this author into a box of just two kinds of nurses. That is one of the most incorrect statements you could have made.

Perhaps its time you retired from it if you have this type of dismissive attitude. I can just see you now, your patient knows something isn't right, you check a few things and tell them they are fine and that you will check on them later. You finally make it back and by this time, that something that wasn't right has escalated into something big. So now you are scrambling to fix the issue that you should have fixed from the beginning, all because it "wasn't a concern." I pray that I do not end my career with the same attitude that you have.

Actually she did give a polite and well thought out and concerned explanation of how this scenario went. I'm sorry but your 30 years in healthcare is skewed by your attitude so you cannot, with absolute certainty, lump this author into a box of just two kinds of nurses. That is one of the most incorrect statements you could have made.

Perhaps its time you retired from it if you have this type of dismissive attitude. I can just see you now, your patient knows something isn't right, you check a few things and tell them they are fine and that you will check on them later. You finally make it back and by this time, that something that wasn't right has escalated into something big. So now you are scrambling to fix the issue that you should have fixed from the beginning, all because it "wasn't a concern." I pray that I do not end my career with the same attitude that you have.

That's not how I manage my patients at all. Most of my patients do much better outside the hospital than in, because they don't overthink things. I can't tell you how many times the MAR shows something like "patient refused -causes headache" for nitropaste when I admit somebody for CP rule-out. Or beta blockers held for "low BP", and the documented BP is 102.

To me, this is usually the work of an "un-zealous" nurse.

Specializes in ICU.
That's not how I manage my patients at all. Most of my patients do much better outside the hospital than in, because they don't overthink things. I can't tell you how many times the MAR shows something like "patient refused -causes headache" for nitropaste when I admit somebody for CP rule-out. Or beta blockers held for "low BP", and the documented BP is 102.

To me, this is usually the work of an "un-zealous" nurse.

Just have to point out a couple of things here. There are some patients that aren't going to take a medicine no matter how life-saving because of the side effects, and no amount of education is going to have them change your minds. Instead of criticizing the nurses for the nitro example, maybe you should talk to the patient about why the patient won't take their meds and prescribe something else if the patient refuses the nitro. We can't force meds on people who are competent and truly refusing them - that's assault and battery.

Low BP with a systolic of 102? I might or might not give a beta blocker at this number dependent on the diastolic. If the diastolic is 38, making the MAP 58, the patient could be having problems with end-organ perfusion d/t hypotension and giving a beta blocker would make the problem worse. Not saying this is the case, but you didn't clarify what the blood pressure actually was, so I don't know. I assume you are not just looking at the systolic BP when making BP med decisions.

Specializes in primary care, holistic health, integrated medicine.
Are you sure that the patient with the COPD should truly be on beta blockers? It's typically contraindicated,” or I understand that you just ordered that fluid bolus on the patient with the low blood pressure, but they do have heart failure with renal failure, I think it may be in their best interest to decrease their Lisinopril.”

If you said either of these to me the way you have written it, I would try to politely dismiss you as well.

In your article you come across as a know-it-all who knows too little. It's too bad you think you did the right thing.

In her defense, she did end the article with this statement: "If we speak up and suggest and are incorrect, teach us. Otherwise, we look to you as doctors to act and please address concerns and issues as they arise."

Now, I think YOU sound like an all knowing, pretentious medical provider who looks down upon the nurses as "less than".... but in many hospitals, especially private hospitals where the MDs are CONTRACT employees, the nurses are tasked with managing compliance issues, reimbursement issues, etc, and MUST keep the doctors in line - the nurses are on the front lines.... they don't get to answer pages as their leisure. Have you ever worked as a bedside nurse??? I have done both, and even both at the same time. APRN during the week and RN at the bedside on the weekends. As more and more RNs are going straight through, especially with the proprietary schools, becoming DNPs without having ever really practiced as an RN, the communication, and culture is becoming ever more lacking. APRNs should be nurse leaders.... meaning that they should be looking at the RNs who are on the front lines and truly examining their concerns - as they are seeking ways to meet their patient's needs, keep the MDs happy, keep the administration from coming down on them, minimizing the patients' families' frustration, and just stay afloat and maybe even have a second or two to go urinate at least once throughout a shift....I feel her frustration, and as an APRN I would look more deeply into her concerns, because the article is loaded with frustration and helplessness. I didn't feel that there was any sense of "knowitallism". Just my humble opinion.

Specializes in primary care, holistic health, integrated medicine.

I have never, ever seen a nurse hold nitro because the patient refused, or hold a beta blocker for a heart rate of 107.... there are TWO kinds of nurses (who question orders?) (not sure of what TYPE you mean) ??? Seriously? You could say there are two kinds of APRNs, as well, those who wish they were doctors and so emulate the most pretentious and dismissive of those, and those who remember what it is like to be an RN and part of a team.

Just have to point out a couple of things here. There are some patients that aren't going to take a medicine no matter how life-saving because of the side effects, and no amount of education is going to have them change your minds. Instead of criticizing the nurses for the nitro example, maybe you should talk to the patient about why the patient won't take their meds and prescribe something else if the patient refuses the nitro. We can't force meds on people who are competent and truly refusing them - that's assault and battery.

Low BP with a systolic of 102? I might or might not give a beta blocker at this number dependent on the diastolic. If the diastolic is 38, making the MAP 58, the patient could be having problems with end-organ perfusion d/t hypotension and giving a beta blocker would make the problem worse. Not saying this is the case, but you didn't clarify what the blood pressure actually was, so I don't know. I assume you are not just looking at the systolic BP when making BP med decisions.

I knew someone was going to say this. In the case of the nitro, and frequently what I would find when I talked to my patient, was that they never actually said that. They would have nitro paste from the ER, but no one ever came in to put anymore on. Charted it though, Hmm. I see this way too often to think every patient is lying, and every nurse is charting correctly.

When my beta blocker order is written, hold for SBP