The Overly UN-zealous Hospitalist

Nurses are by NO means physicians. The roles are very different, and yet they tend to overlap consistently in modern healthcare. Relationships are becoming strained and tired as demands grow. Small seeds of mistrust have been planted and are festering. Health care needs to SLOW DOWN and see the bigger picture. Without a pause, danger sets in. Nurses Announcements Archive Article

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It's 0730 and bedside rounds with the night staff and day nurses have completed. Morning labs have been reviewed and the rush has begun. A new physician has strolled onto the scene with his coffee and nonchalant smile. "Good morning" he pleasantly addresses to the passers-by. We smile awkwardly as we rush to meet morning needs (of which are always so great). Orders start popping up as I read through each one. My brows furrow together as I see some oddities that make me uncomfortable. I head to the Doc box (where our physicians reside) and inquire on some of the new tasks I've been encouraged to complete via CPOE (online orders). "Are you sure that the patient with the COPD should truly be on beta blockers? It's typically contraindicated," or "I understand that you just ordered that fluid bolus on the patient with the low blood pressure, but they do have heart failure with renal failure, I think it may be in their best interest to decrease their Lisinopril." He looked at me with bugged out eyes and waved his hand dismissively. 'I'll look at it later."

Later came a lot faster than usual. I paged the hospitalist again to request orders for physical therapy, case management for skilled nursing placement, medication corrections, medication reconciliations from the night before and writing scripts for discharges. Text page after phone page and back again, I am back at ground zero with empty hands. So, I page again and again. None of these are returned. At this time I am allowed to STAT page. So I do. A monotone voice answers, "Doctor?" 'Yes?' Then I progress to mention what I've been paging about for the last five hours. 'I was already there this morning, I am leaving at three, so the night physician can take care of that.' I press and press. He hangs up.

My blood is starting to boil. Families have questions, patients want answers and yet I cannot bridge the gap. My charge is notified and she does what's in her jurisdiction. Still no response, no meds corrected, patients are growing more frustrated and families are now angry. I page and page, the end of shift comes. I explain my dilemma to the night nurse who gives me a talking to, seeing as I "sat on these issues" all day long and "didn't do anything about it". Needless to say, I'm speechless and defeated from the hard work I attempted, and was yet spat on for trying.

Unfortunately, the next day was the same. I was told to fix things myself by this doctor, or to page someone else to take care of the orders because he was 'just too busy'. Despite his busyness, despite his idea of workload and time management, I was trying to explain that a lack of treatment for these patients would increase their hospital stay as well as (in the end) screw us with reimbursement services if we did not provide. Another blank stare, 'I have to go' was all I got.

I watched those white coat tails billow behind his short frame as I felt my trust wither and flilt away with him. I did the only thing I knew, I contacted the chief of medicine. Seeing as my charge nurse was aware, at the time was without management, the next best thing was the Chief of Medicine. He showed up in person not even thirty minutes later. He corrected what was missing, adjusted the meds that fell short, or overtreated in dangerous ways and then thanked me for my diligence.

I was pleased for the action that had been encouraged from my so-called 'tattle-taling' but I still felt as though I had accomplished nothing. It shouldn't be the nurse to correct your dangerous orders. Yes, we are a checks and balances group. It is often a good thing to have more hands in the pot in order that things can get done. But when issues arise and your choice is to act to sit quietly, sit quietly should not be the option you choose.

For nurses, this is a frequent occurrence. I know that we are all imperfect and things often need fixing, titrating, or medications are given because of a 'greater good' outcome. But it's a lack of action that will continue to endanger our licenses, our ability to assist patients in their ultimate care and to act as an advocate.

If we speak up and suggest and are incorrect, teach us. Otherwise, we look to you as doctors to act and please address concerns and issues as they arise.

It's why we are all here, isn't it?

I was told quite plainly when I questioned a doctor's order it was easier to replace a Nurse than a Doctor. So I have seen this many times while working in a Hospital. The clinic is a lot easier but you still have to watch orders.

Specializes in Med/Surg, Onc., Palliative/Hospice, CPU.
I was told quite plainly when I questioned a doctor's order it was easier to replace a Nurse than a Doctor.

Yikes, I can't believe someone said that. I went to training today (mock code training) and we are working with a new tele order set (that they are finding out isn't really working well). When we presented that we had been calling to verify orders, etc-- we were ALL getting the similar responses like your above-stated experience. It's not okay.

I would rather verify orders or double check something (that couldn't be addressed by ancillary staff, e.g. pharmacy) and make a doc frustrated than to lose my license that I busted my tail for (and continually bust my tail for)!

I am sorry to hear of all of your experiences. It's very tiresome working such a tough job and having that sort of response/feedback. We are supposed to be a team!

Specializes in PICU, OR, PACU, QA/QC, Risk Management.

Sir, you are way off base! She ABSOLUTELY did the right thing. If you go to a physician without the knowledge she expressed, he/she will come back at you with "you're a Registered Nurse, why don't you know the answer to that question?" A physician "worth his salt" will be glad you are observant and knowledgeable about his patient and their diagnosis. Hospitalists are general practitioners who commonly have to consult with specialists on staff and usually appreciate Nurses who have specialized knowledge and will take advantage of their experience. Those who dodge their Nurses are either 1) insecure in their position, or 2) too darn busy to give good care. She followed all the proper administrative steps (I don't understand why her Nursing Manager didn't pursue the issue) but probably should have gotten to the Chief of Medicine quicker than 5 hours if possible. I have been a Nurse Manager for 40 years and often find Hospitalists more difficult to get assistance from.

Specializes in MICU, SICU, CICU.
This made me chuckle. Yes, we are bickering, but it isn't a segue. I look at it as the OPs points being demonstrated. A provider here has shown a dismissive attitude toward nursing, which is exactly one of the themes in the OP.

I don't see the provider as being dismissive of nursing. I was a bedside nurse for 10 years before becoming a nurse practitioner, and I remember the days of frustrating encounters with providers. Increasing my education and becoming a provider lets me see things from a point of view that I wasn't able to see before.

To go back to the beta blocker example, yes it would exasperate me for a nurse to question the order with a patient with COPD. I would expect that the nurse would have the baseline knowledge to know the difference between a nonselective beta-blocker like propranolol vs a cardioselective beta-blocker like metoprolol. In my practice setting yes I will write for beta-blockers in patients with marginal SBP, the benefit of cutting their risk of death outweighs some of the risks.

No I don't spend as much time directly in the care of the patient as I used to, but I still know the issues that are going on with them and are attuned to their needs. Sometimes I feel that nurses don't understand the amount of thought that goes into writing an order for a patient, or the amount of risk we assume in the care of some of our patients.

I also agree that OP engages in hyperbole quite often, and I say that from the perspective of reading her other posts. And no before anyone suggests it, I am quite well liked by the nurses on my unit. They know that I will do what is necessary for any of my patients, and that I have their back 100% of the time.

To go back to the beta blocker example, yes it would exasperate me for a nurse to question the order with a patient with COPD. I would expect that the nurse would have the baseline knowledge to know the difference between a nonselective beta-blocker like propranolol vs a cardioselective beta-blocker like metoprolol. In my practice setting yes I will write for beta-blockers in patients with marginal SBP, the benefit of cutting their risk of death outweighs some of the risks.

Exactly what I was thinking in my first post. I can see how this would grind my gears as a future provider....

just to provide some perspective, I just graduated from an ADN and it was drilled in our heads in med surg I that beta blockers were a no-no for COPD, and I imagine the OP went through the same kind of boot camp. There was no distinction made between non-selective vs cardioselective, which I've just learned in this thread (thank you). And this is one of those examples that kind of frighten me, because we learn in nursing school about the perfect world of NCLEX Memorial Medical Center and they tell us stuff like question a physician's order, and I'm thinking to myself 1) I was premed a one point and couldn't swim through that ocean so how my 2 yrs of nursing education is going to go up against someone from med school seem kinda preposterous and 2) as this example shows, I would be in fact wrong for questioning the order in the first place, so it's a double whammy.

Specializes in Med/Surg, Onc., Palliative/Hospice, CPU.
I also agree that OP engages in hyperbole quite often, and I say that from the perspective of reading her other posts.

Hyperbole is my middle name. (Thanks for catching that!) ; )

automotiveRN67 said:
Are you sure that the patient with the COPD should truly be on beta blockers? It's typically contraindicated, or I understand that you just ordered that fluid bolus on the patient with the low blood pressure, but they do have heart failure with renal failure, I think it may be in their best interest to decrease their Lisinopril.

If you said either of these to me the way you have written it, I would try to politely dismiss you as well.

In your article you come across as a know-it-all who knows too little. It's too bad you think you did the right thing.

The quote "don't know what you don't know" kept coming to me through the OPs post.

"I watched those white coat tails billow behind his short frame as I felt my trust wither and flilt away with him."

Seriously?

She didn't give a polite, well reasoned anything. I have been working in healthcare almost 30 years, and I have seen nurses like this come and go. They are generally one of two types. 1) They quietly sit and stew about everything they perceive is wrong, or 2) They go after everybody, all the time, for anything they perceive is wrong. They are never good team players.

Now if she had said to the hospitalist, "Did you mean to restart Mr. Bill Board's metformin today, or hold it for a full 48 hours after his cardiac cath?". Or "Mr. John Jumpingjack's Lantus is still on hold from surgery, but he ate all of his meals yesterday, do you want to restart that for tonight?"

Neither of the examples she gave would or should be concerns. And I imagine she feels that physicians don't listen to her because she warns of things that aren't concerns. So it would be pretty hard to take her suggestions seriously.

Wow what makes you think she was qietly stewing? She was attempting to make important clarifications and was totally brushed off. Trying to get a hold of a doctor for five hours with no response is unacceptable and warrants some course of correction. Practically everything we do requires a physician's order so your hands are pretty much tied if you need a new pain med order, reporting critical labs or vitals, or any other million things that can happen in a 5 hour period on a busy floor. So what would your approach be? Do tell.

By and large, hospitalists are overworked. They can have up to 20 or more patients to round on in one 12 hour shift. If the hospitalist has to round on 20 patients, that's 36 minutes per patient with no rest break, no meal break, and not counting the time it takes to run all over the hospital. Throw in page after page from nurses requesting Tylenol or cough drops or a sleeping pill, and yes, you've got a pretty busy doctor.

Just as nurses have to triage our care and address the most immediate matters first and foremost, so does the hospitalist.

In the case of the person with COPD on a beta blocker, as has already been mentioned, people with COPD are prescribed beta blockers all the time. In the case of the person with CHF and CKD, people with these diagnoses can often tolerate gentle 250-500mL fluid boluses.

For the hospitalist to address discharge prescriptions and physical therapy orders means that another patient, who may have more immediate needs, is not getting those immediate needs addressed.

Yes, we as RNs are on the front line- we're the boots on the ground, and it is up to us to be the eyes and ears and identify threats to life and limb and respond appropriately. If that beta blocker is compromising the COPD patient's respiratory status, then by all means page. If that 250mL fluid bolus is causing the CHF/CKD patient's lungs to fill up, by all means stop the bolus and page. But keep in mind that that COPD patient may have been on that beta blocker for the last ten years, and your withholding it could do harm- and conversely, if it is a new medication for that patient, there is a reason they start patients on new meds while in the hospital and not as outpatients. Keep in mind that that CHF/CKD patient might be so delicate that altering their Lisinopril dosage might be the last thing the doctor should do.

I encourage nurses to be thinking nurses, not automatons who just blindly follow doctors' orders without question- and yet, keep in mind that with many, many patients, especially these complex patients with multiple system comorbidities, everything comes down to risk vs. benefit.

I feel sorry for the hospitalist in this article. He sounds like he is overwhelmed and doing everything to keep his head above water, and is being hounded, nickel and dimed, and judged unfairly by a new nurse who doesn't know what she doesn't know.

But really, what bothers me most is that this is just fine and dandy with the hospital administrators who put profit before human lives. Keep all those little people- the doctors, nurses, and patients, fighting amongst themselves so they don't realize who the real enemy is.

And P.S. to the OP, are you sure you want to use your real name?

I agree hospitalists are overworked. At a smaller hospital I was at (115 beds), there was one doc working on some night shifts both holding the pager and admitting. No PA/NP available.

That is a lot of responsibility which is why as a nurse you need to know your stuff and have the doc's back when he/she asks about the patient.

I think you handled the communication with the doctor very poorly. You DO NOT tell him that you have been calling and calling him. This is a bad way to start a conversation and it will get you nowhere! YOU put him on defense right from the start. You will learn this skill the longer you are a nurse.