The Great Double Standard?

TDub, MSN, EdD · Sep 2, 2007

58flyer , I'm glad you know not to take it personally. I agree with you about being restricted ONLY because of gender.

If I walked in your room and you said, "I'm sorry, I just can't have a female nurse", I would be very happy to find a man for you. I totally understand!

ImJustBSN · Sep 3, 2007

I graduated nursing school in '97, and they all but exepted us from OB GYN stating we would never work in that field anyway.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Sep 7, 2007

I can tell you as a nurse and a patient, that I would not care if I had a male RN taking care of me. I probably wouldn't care if they were Martian, as long as they were competent and caring. That includes OB/GYN. I realize not everybody feels that way, but I would welcome a male RN onto my mother/baby unit as a coworker or as a patient. I don't see what the difference is between a male nurse and a male MD seeing my parts. I understand if someone else has an issue with it. I'm not judging that. I'm just saying that for me personally, it's a non-issue.

anonymurse · Sep 7, 2007

It's funny - just last night, I had a nurse ask me to place a foley in his female patient.

I have to drag in a female chaperone to check for impaction or to insert a foley. If I have to bring in a female RN, that's one wasted RN. If I have to bring in a female aide, that's one aide tied up for nothing. However I don't ask anyone to do my work, so I just ask for a chaperone if an aide is free, or if an RN is free and either chaperones or takes over, that's fine.

tater.jake · Sep 7, 2007

I'm a male and I haven't really had issues with other nurses regarding this issue. I always respect the patients wishes, but I don't think twice before going below the equator if the patient doesn't mind. It's just science! The only concern I would have is to be accused of doing more than my duty. If I didn't feel good about the situation, I would either have an aid in the room, or ask a female to do it.

karenG · Sep 10, 2007

"I think we can agree that the patient's desires come out on top regardless of how reasonable we (the nursing staff) might view that request. Even if it bucks the current zeit geist for gender relations, we are bound by "patient bill of rights" to respond accordingly to their request. Anyone disagree?"
I've got to disagree. What if the patient was uncomfortable with a nurse who wasn't white? Would we all be falling over ourselves talking about how the patient's desires come first? Of course not - in fact, about a year ago there was that exact issue in a maternity ward around here. The hospital agreed to provide white nurses, and there was a huge blowout about it (as well there should be.)
So basically, when you boil it down, if you think it's ok for a patient to refuse a male nurse, then you think gender discrimination is ok. Only in this very narrow circumstance, but discrimination is discrimination.
Once you say that it's ok to accommodate gender discrimination (in whatever narrow conditions you put on it), then you forfeit the right to argue that gender discrimination is wrong. Instead you can only argue about when it is appropriate.
Try these on for size:
"I don't want a black nurse." not ok - racism
"I don't want a gay nurse." not ok - discrimination
"I don't want a male nurse." oh, that's understandable, and we'll try to accommodate your preferences
Why is it ok to discriminate based on gender, while it is horrible to discriminate based on other criteria?

I'm going to beg to differ ...

In 30 years as a nurse I have never heard a patient say they didnt want a nurse because of their colour etc. I have met lots of elderly ladies who are mortified about having a man do personal care. As nurses we are supposed to be sensitive to our patients needs and feelings. If an elderly lady asked you not to do personal care because she was embarrassed, would you tell her to get over it and go ahead and do the care anyway??? to me that would demonstate a lack of understanding about your patients feelings. there is a generation out there who have no idea of what their own body looks like below the neck ( I have no idea how they manage to wash) and who are deeply embarrassed and mortified at the the thought of a man seeing them naked. Thats what it boils down to.. not colour/creed or sexual preferances.... just plain moritifcation!

on the other hand... i have had ladies ask for a man to do their care.. once worked with a drop dead gorgeous man called Moses... 6'2, ebony skin and a smile that could light up the world.... we worked together on a gynae ward. the ladies knew his shift pattern better than he did!! they would put on make up, clean nighties and be ready for him to come on duty!! was really funny.. he now works with babies at GOS because they dont talk back! great bloke.

Karen

BillEDRN · Sep 11, 2007

I'm going to beg to differ ...
In 30 years as a nurse I have never heard a patient say they didnt want a nurse because of their colour etc. I have met lots of elderly ladies who are mortified about having a man do personal care. As nurses we are supposed to be sensitive to our patients needs and feelings. If an elderly lady asked you not to do personal care because she was embarrassed, would you tell her to get over it and go ahead and do the care anyway??? to me that would demonstate a lack of understanding about your patients feelings. there is a generation out there who have no idea of what their own body looks like below the neck ( I have no idea how they manage to wash) and who are deeply embarrassed and mortified at the the thought of a man seeing them naked. Thats what it boils down to.. not colour/creed or sexual preferances.... just plain moritifcation!
on the other hand... i have had ladies ask for a man to do their care.. once worked with a drop dead gorgeous man called Moses... 6'2, ebony skin and a smile that could light up the world.... we worked together on a gynae ward. the ladies knew his shift pattern better than he did!! they would put on make up, clean nighties and be ready for him to come on duty!! was really funny.. he now works with babies at GOS because they dont talk back! great bloke.
Karen

Karen,

It seems you miss the point of the discussion regarding what is "acceptable" discrimination and what isn't. Why is it that female nurses are not so accepting if someone says they don't want a female nurse (i.e. a male patient asking for a male because of some problem "down there" - I know I have personally heard female nurses tell such a patient to "get over it...I've seen it all before") but want to make it a cultural issue if a female patient doesn't want a male nurse? Sure, we should accomodate a patient's requests if possible, but I do not think we need to perpetuate outdated stereotypes.

As a student, I was excluded from most aspects of my OB/GYN rotation, but have delivered several babies. I was also told by my instructor that "men shouldn't be in nursing" so there is some legitimate concern that such regressive thinking needs to be addressed.

Oh, and by the way, I have, on several occasions, had patients ask for a different nurse or a doctor based on race or ethnicity. We didn't accomodate those requests, and I am not sure we need to do so for gender either.

leslie :-D · Sep 11, 2007

Karen,
We didn't accomodate those requests, and I am not sure we need to do so for gender either.

i can assure you, i would not let a male nurse do any sort of personal care on me.

even though i intellectually recognize that a male is just as qualified, it is an emotional response for me.

therefore it would not be gender discrimination.

as it wouldn't be for many people.

if a male pt expresses discomfort w/me, i do everything in my power to get a male nurse.

respect works both ways.

leslie

TDub, MSN, EdD · Sep 11, 2007

When I worked on OB, word came through that a man was going to join the nursing staff. We didn't know a thing about him except he'd been a psych nurse for a number of years. We fell right into the stereotype and maligned him terribly before we even met him.

"Who does he think he is? No man can do a good job on OB! There's not a patient here who'll let him take care of her! A PSYCH nurse, oh puhleez!" blah blah blah

Then John showed up. Man, did we have to eat some major crow. He was fantastic. He quickly won over the staff and the patients uniformly liked him. He was a terrific OB nurse. That really taught me a lesson. I trusted him enough I'd have let him take care of me. That's saying a lot.

So guys, it is possible to change our barnacle encrusted minds.

karenG · Sep 11, 2007

Karen,
It seems you miss the point of the discussion regarding what is "acceptable" discrimination and what isn't. Why is it that female nurses are not so accepting if someone says they don't want a female nurse (i.e. a male patient asking for a male because of some problem "down there" - I know I have personally heard female nurses tell such a patient to "get over it...I've seen it all before") but want to make it a cultural issue if a female patient doesn't want a male nurse? Sure, we should accomodate a patient's requests if possible, but I do not think we need to perpetuate outdated stereotypes.
As a student, I was excluded from most aspects of my OB/GYN rotation, but have delivered several babies. I was also told by my instructor that "men shouldn't be in nursing" so there is some legitimate concern that such regressive thinking needs to be addressed.
Oh, and by the way, I have, on several occasions, had patients ask for a different nurse or a doctor based on race or ethnicity. We didn't accomodate those requests, and I am not sure we need to do so for gender either.

I dont think I am missing the point. I just think that patients (be they male or female) should be allowed some choice in who does personal care. Patients who see me in my role as nurse practitioner have chosen to see me, and they know I am female. therefore they choose what they wish to talk to me about. I see this a different choice from saying you dont want a nurse because he/she is orange/green/has 3 arms etc. And I am only talking about personal care (ok double standard on my part in dividing care up!). some women are very happy for anyone to care for them.. I've worked with male midwifes.. brilliant men with far more sympathy than female midwifes! But there does remain a small group of patients who prefer to recieve personal care from someone of the same sex... and I think we should allow that. If a man doesnt want me to do personal care- thats fine.. I will find a nurse he is comfortable with.

I would not support discrimination on any other grounds..

Karen

BillEDRN · Sep 12, 2007

i can assure you, i would not let a male nurse do any sort of personal care on me.
even though i intellectually recognize that a male is just as qualified, it is an emotional response for me.
therefore it would not be gender discrimination.
as it wouldn't be for many people.
if a male pt expresses discomfort w/me, i do everything in my power to get a male nurse.
respect works both ways.
leslie

While you are entitled to your personal opinions and biases, you are incorrect about your discrimination. It does not matter an iota if your response is an "emotional" one or not...it is still discrimination. If a patient requested a white nurse 'even though they recognized that a black nurse was just as qualified' because it was an "emotional" issue for them, would you then say it wasn't discrimination? Of course not!

And while I appreciate your discomfort, let's call it what it is. Like all forms of discrimination, the best way to address it is with open and honest discussions, not attempts to bury the true nature of it under the guise of a different name.

BillEDRN · Sep 12, 2007

"I dont think I am missing the point."

I hate to berate the point, but I think you are. The discussion was about why this form of discrimination is tolerated when other forms are so vehemently renounced.

"I see this a different choice from saying you dont want a nurse because he/she is orange/green/has 3 arms etc. And I am only talking about personal care (ok double standard on my part in dividing care up!)."

So you recognize that you are inconsistent in you arguments and that you do(or so it appears, as I assume you would have the same problems with a realistic class that may be subject to discrimination, such as blacks) have a problem with other forms of discrimination.

"Patients who see me in my role as nurse practitioner have chosen to see me..."

I am not sure what type of system you work for, but for many patients, and the nurses that care for them, such options are not always available or practical. Assuming you were the only nurse available, and a patient requested a male because of an STD, would you let him wander out into the healthcare maze and let him try to find a male to treat him? Or would you try to convince him that his health, as well as others he might have (or had) contact with, was in jeopardy and that as a professional you would treat him with the same understanding, dignity, and compassion as a male counter-part?

"I would not support discrimination on any other grounds.."

So at least you recognize it as discrimination, which only validates that we have a reasonable basis to question why this type of discrimination is OK, when others are not.