Student caught stealing....

OCNRN63, RN · Dec 12, 2010

i really can't say that i'm repulsed by the student's actions (disheartened, dismayed, unnerved: yes) . in all honesty i don't like all the high and mighty attitudes i'm reading about making someone suffer, branding them with a scarlet letter, teaching them a lesson. it's all so preachy and biblical. for me, i try not to let myself think i can be the last word on someone's character; that i can be the ultimate decider in someone's fate, because of a wrongdoing done to me; that's far too hefty a task. my job is to find forgiveness so that i can sleep better at night.
let me flip the story, if i may. awhile back a patient went into a doctor's purse (left out in the open at the nurses station) and took her credit cards and cell phone, hiding them where the sun don't shine. here our vulnerable and precious patient (the one that everyone is concerned with protecting) is the culprit. press charges?

I'll ask you again, if some guy off the street stole from you, would you be so forgiving and non-judgemental?

And yes, the patient who stole should have had charges pressed against him/her. Stealing is stealing. (And if that patient managed to put credit cards and a cell phone "where the sun don't shine," that must have been one interesting X-ray.)

1louise1 · Dec 12, 2010

I'll ask you again, if some guy off the street stole from you, would you be so forgiving and non-judgemental?
And yes, the patient who stole should have had charges pressed against him/her. Stealing is stealing. (And if that patient managed to put credit cards and a cell phone "where the sun don't shine," that must have been one interesting X-ray.)

okay, if someone came in off the street and stole from me, i would find it necessary FOR ME to find forgiveness. you've heard the saying about resentment being like a poison that we take and waiting for the other person to die...it can't go on forever. would i judge them? no. who am i to make a judgment? i know how judgments feel, deserved or not. i have made the greatest and most profound changes in my life because i was forgiven of my harms. nooooowwwwwwww back to the nursing student. Zookeeper3's response was way intense, saying stuff about shame and things like "A thief is NOT a nurse and can never be." do you agree with that? do you think people can change?

i've lost sight of the original post. i wonder if OP is even reading this anymore, or wondering what the hell we're even talking about. i wonder what OP did?

as for the story i mentioned, no XRAY needed. just a couple of hefty security guards and the canine unit to scare the sh*t (and other miscellaneous goods) out of him.

OCNRN63, RN · Dec 12, 2010

okay, if someone came in off the street and stole from me, i would find it necessary FOR ME to find forgiveness. you've heard the saying about resentment being like a poison that we take and waiting for the other person to die...it can't go on forever. would i judge them? no. who am i to make a judgment? i know how judgments feel, deserved or not. i have made the greatest and most profound changes in my life because i was forgiven of my harms. nooooowwwwwwww back to the nursing student. Zookeeper3's response was way intense, saying stuff about shame and things like "A thief is NOT a nurse and can never be." do you agree with that? do you think people can change?
i've lost sight of the original post. i wonder if OP is even reading this anymore, or wondering what the hell we're even talking about. i wonder what OP did?
as for the story i mentioned, no XRAY needed. just a couple of hefty security guards and the canine unit to scare the sh*t (and other miscellaneous goods) out of him.

Then we need no police.

It's possible for people to change, but people also need to pay when they have wronged society. When someone commits a crime, the law says there are consequences. There would be chaos if people could just rob (or worse) with no penalty.

I believe the OP already said she was going to press charges on Monday.

I guess what you think is resentment, I see as justice. What I would resent is a thief and a liar getting off scott-free.

1louise1 · Dec 12, 2010

is the student getting off scott-free though? she has publicly embarrassed herself, is subject to discharge from her nursing program (which will probably be the case) and has to live with herself and her poor behavior. sounds horrible to me.

OCNRN63, RN · Dec 12, 2010

is the student getting off scott-free though? she has publicly embarrassed herself, is subject to discharge from her nursing program (which will probably be the case) and has to live with herself and her poor behavior. sounds horrible to me.

Not if she has no conscience. By her actions, it's pretty apparent she has none.

Look, we just disagree here. I think someone who is capable of multiple lies, multiple theft, wrongfully accusing someone else of a crime in an attempt to cover up her crime is deserving of harsh consequences. More than just expulsion from the nursing program. That's a no-brainer.

Let's remember who the real victims are in this case.

leslie :-D · Dec 12, 2010

is the student getting off scott-free though? she has publicly embarrassed herself, is subject to discharge from her nursing program (which will probably be the case) and has to live with herself and her poor behavior. sounds horrible to me.

it sounds horrible, ONLY if she feels remorse...

which doesn't seem to be the case.

if anything, she's remorseful that she got caught.

that said, i am sick to death of this ubiquitous compassion that we nurses are always expected to display.

we as a profession, are so much more than a merciful entity.

we also believe in responsibility, accountability, and integrity.

to advocate in pressing charges, ensures that other facilities will at least, be aware of past infractions.

it has little to do with judgment, and more to do with principle and consideration.

i don't feel compassion, nor do i feel obligated to.

the situation is what it is, and her actions needs to go on record.

nothing more, nothing less.

leslie

1louise1 · Dec 12, 2010

no worries, i never thought we would agree, i just like to hear other peoples' opinions/thoughts. :smokin:

RaggedyRN · Dec 12, 2010

Yes I'm still reading the opinions. I take issue with the poster who questioned my professionalism for coming to a gossipy site like this for opinions. I came here looking for support which I have always received in the past. I am waiting until Monday to file a report. I am married to a lawyer and am well prepared about what to expect.... Small claims court and restitution. He is against filing charges because it will take alot of my time and it's not worth the small amount of money taken.

I'll press charges so she will have a record and perhaps be prevented from applying to another nursing school. This particular student failed out of her first program, which was a BSN program. She entered this ADN program as a second year student. I instruct their pediatric rotation. I get a new group of 4-5 students every 2 weeks. I just met this student last week. I know nothing of hercacademic abilities. I only know what she has shown me during clinicals. Her own peers had come to me during the investigation and expressed their concerns about her potentially copying another students paper. In their words they think she's a pathological liar. I know this woman needs psychiatric help, not criminal prosecution. Unfortunately our society does not help the mentally ill. She certainly committed a crime, but why? What else is going on in this womans life? I have been thinking about this since Thursday. I am not angry and vengeful. I'm concerned about her and the people in her path. I'm praying that if the police get involved that her family will clue in that she has issues they need to help her with. This is a 26 year old woman. I can't just call her parents as if she were a minor. I'm tryin to look at all of the possible outcomes and which would truly benefit the student and society...it's not been an easy time and I do appreciate all of your opinions!

TDCHIM · Dec 12, 2010

Interesting for me watching how it has been almost unanimous amongst the responders - who all appear to be from the USA - that this young woman deserves a harsh punitive response. There have been precious few posters who have shown mercy, compassion, a lack of self-righteousness, some kind of demonstration that there might be extenuating circumstances etc.... what is shocking to me, as a mental health professional from another country, is:
1) how overwhelming your reverence for the "almighty dollar" appears to be - for the loss of $114 a career is to be lost (and I am not interested in hearing about how dangerous she is to patient safety - that's a furphy to justify your "cut off her hands" responses)
2) what is such an indecisive person doing in such an important position of authority to be coming onto a gossipy site like this to ask how to behave in such a weighty matter? The OP would perhaps benefit from some quiet reflection and some stand-up-and-be-counted decision-making of your own. Use this as an opportunity to grow as a teacher and supervisor: think through the issues yourself and then advise/discuss the matter with your own supervisor

@TrishJK: Your own response is fairly self-righteous as well.

Now, that being said, I am uneasy at the tenor of some of the responses to this thread. Let me make it clear: I believe this student should have been expelled. Reporting the matter to the local police seems reasonable too. I believe this not because of my "reverence for the almighty dollar," but because the student 1. stole what is a significant sum for an everyday person (and may have stolen another minor one), 2. took time away from patient care in order to commit the theft, 3. lied about the matter in an attempt to cover her own tracks and to make herself appear to be another victim, 4. allowed an innocent housekeeper to be suspected, and 5. has not yet attempted to apologize to the victims or make restitution, despite her claims of intending to do so. In my opinion, this is a very serious matter and it deserves to be handled as such. OP, I agree that you should file a report with the police, if only to demonstrate to the student the seriousness of her actions.

However, I'm uncomfortable with responses stating that the student should never again have be permitted to hold a job in nursing or any other profession. That sounds like something out of the works of Victor Hugo. What is the student to do for the rest of her days if she is no longer permitted to have a job in any profession? Is one incident of petty theft in the workplace (and clearly it's possible she may have committed other such acts, but it seems reasonable to think this was her first formal adult criminal theft offense given that she was admitted into her nursing school program) enough to bar someone from a decent living for the rest of his or her days? Is she supposed to survive on minimum wage jobs forever? Should she ever be eligible for even a minimum wage job? How long and to what degree should she be punished for this one incident?

What about the possibility of punishment and rehabilitation? If we as a society seek only to punish, the student is basically excluded from being a fully productive member of society; however, if we attempt to combine punishment with rehabilitation and eventually give her another chance, she could commit a similar infraction. It is costly to us to lose her talents and productivity; if she is disallowed from being gainfully employed or from making more than minimum wage, she will likely be eligible for governmental assistance like food stamps or even welfare. Should there be some sort of path for her to eventually overcome her crime and be allowed back into nursing (or alternately, for people in other professions like the law or education to re-enter their respective professions) by submitting to punishment and remaining on the right side of the law for an extended period? If you think she should neither be permitted back into any sort of job nor allowed to claim governmental assistance, wouldn't that simply force her into a criminal lifestyle for lack of other options?

I don't have good answers for all these questions and points. I wish I did. I can see arguments on both sides of the situation.

Mulan · Dec 12, 2010

That's not an acceptable excuse. If I choose to keep my money on the table in plain view while I go take care of a task, I EXPECT it to be there when I return.

What's that old saying? A fool and his money are soon parted?

DizzyLizzyNurse · Dec 12, 2010

okay, if someone came in off the street and stole from me, i would find it necessary FOR ME to find forgiveness. you've heard the saying about resentment being like a poison that we take and waiting for the other person to die...it can't go on forever. would i judge them? no. who am i to make a judgment? i know how judgments feel, deserved or not. i have made the greatest and most profound changes in my life because i was forgiven of my harms. nooooowwwwwwww back to the nursing student. Zookeeper3's response was way intense, saying stuff about shame and things like "A thief is NOT a nurse and can never be." do you agree with that? do you think people can change?
i've lost sight of the original post. i wonder if OP is even reading this anymore, or wondering what the hell we're even talking about. i wonder what OP did?
as for the story i mentioned, no XRAY needed. just a couple of hefty security guards and the canine unit to scare the sh*t (and other miscellaneous goods) out of him.

The idea of forgiveness is a great one; however you would just keep forgiving someone who stole from you once, twice, then maybe three times, four times, five times....? There has to be a punishment for a crime at some point. Or 1louise1, you can leave your purse out in front of this woman so she can steal from you instead of someone else...?

OCNRN63, RN · Dec 12, 2010

@TrishJK: Your own response is fairly self-righteous as well.
Now, that being said, I am uneasy at the tenor of some of the responses to this thread. Let me make it clear: I believe this student should have been expelled. Reporting the matter to the local police seems reasonable too. I believe this not because of my "reverence for the almighty dollar," but because the student 1. stole what is a significant sum for an everyday person (and may have stolen another minor one), 2. took time away from patient care in order to commit the theft, 3. lied about the matter in an attempt to cover her own tracks and to make herself appear to be another victim, 4. allowed an innocent housekeeper to be suspected, and 5. has not yet attempted to apologize to the victims or make restitution, despite her claims of intending to do so. In my opinion, this is a very serious matter and it deserves to be handled as such. OP, I agree that you should file a report with the police, if only to demonstrate to the student the seriousness of her actions.
However, I'm uncomfortable with responses stating that the student should never again have be permitted to hold a job in nursing or any other profession. That sounds like something out of the works of Victor Hugo. What is the student to do for the rest of her days if she is no longer permitted to have a job in any profession? Is one incident of petty theft in the workplace (and clearly it's possible she may have committed other such acts, but it seems reasonable to think this was her first formal adult criminal theft offense given that she was admitted into her nursing school program) enough to bar someone from a decent living for the rest of his or her days? Is she supposed to survive on minimum wage jobs forever? Should she ever be eligible for even a minimum wage job? How long and to what degree should she be punished for this one incident?
What about the possibility of punishment and rehabilitation? If we as a society seek only to punish, the student is basically excluded from being a fully productive member of society; however, if we attempt to combine punishment with rehabilitation and eventually give her another chance, she could commit a similar infraction. It is costly to us to lose her talents and productivity; if she is disallowed from being gainfully employed or from making more than minimum wage, she will likely be eligible for governmental assistance like food stamps or even welfare. Should there be some sort of path for her to eventually overcome her crime and be allowed back into nursing (or alternately, for people in other professions like the law or education to re-enter their respective professions) by submitting to punishment and remaining on the right side of the law for an extended period? If you think she should neither be permitted back into any sort of job nor allowed to claim governmental assistance, wouldn't that simply force her into a criminal lifestyle for lack of other options?
I don't have good answers for all these questions and points. I wish I did. I can see arguments on both sides of the situation.

Not everyone deserves to be a nurse. Did you read the response from the OP where she stated this student failed out of her first program and there have been concerns about her cheating in her current program? Exactly how much latitude do we give people?

We really need to have some sort of standards for our profession.

FWIW, Hugo is one of my favorite writers, but he emphasized owning up for one's actions and making restitution. You can't just cherry-pick to make your point.