Student caught stealing....

SweetOldWorld, BSN, RN · Dec 13, 2010

please don't make assumptions about my modicums

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Quark09 · Dec 13, 2010

Okay, I stopped reading at page ten...

I am curious, OP, had you considered contacting the student yourself? Putting myself in your shoes, that's probably what I might have done. You have no obligation to initiate contact, of course, but I'm one of those people who wants to know "Why?" (reasonable or not ). While yes, she should contact you and make restitution, she may be horribly ashamed (as she should be; if she weren't, well, that's another thing).

As far as pressing charges... I'd wait and see what she said. She may have been on the verge of having her electricity shut off or something. Is that an excuse? It absolutely is not. But yes, reasonable or no, I would have a hard time pressing charges if something like that were going on. Either way, both you and the housekeeper deserve a personal apology from that student. I'm sorry this happened to you; it's an untenable position.

Emergency RN · Dec 13, 2010

If you read my post, you will see that I was not quoting anything.
Criminal law is enforced selectively. Deputy district attorneys decide every day whether or not to file charges. Often, they decide not to, in "the interest of justice."
This is a petty theft case based on circumstantial evidence and an inadmissible admission of guilt. Good luck.

Yes, you're correct, you didn't quote anything; please forgive my tongue in cheek sacasm; but I'm sure you understood the implicit irony behind it.

Enforcement is generally performed by law 'enforcement' personnel, ie police officers and not the prosecutors office. District attorneys make decisions regarding prosecution which is not the same as enforcement. In that regard, the prosecution is based upon selection of cases with the best chances of successful outcome, and interest of justice as well. However, enforcement personnel usually do not have the same leeway in deciding who to arrest. Of course, we all know that it is often at the whim of an officer to intercede in a crime or not. But if asked by a superior, they will say that they didn't see or notice anything wrong, and not that they didn't because it was their discretionary purview to do so; it just ain't.

Whether the subject of the OP's post is ultimately ever successfully prosecuted and serves time is really immaterial. My suggestion of having her charged is that it becomes a part of her essential record, so that others (especially those who may put her into a position of social trust) will be wary when dealing with her. Some may compare this to the stigma of A Scarlet Letter, or perhaps the branding commonly done to faces of criminals and thieves in ancient China. I personally don't think so. Moreover, one must recognize the underlying rationale of why ancient cultures felt the need and sought to use such social control devices in the first place; ie to warn others of danger in their midst. Given that fact that this individual was in the process of becoming a nurse, the possibility of her attempting to do so again (albeit in a different venue), to me at least, is substantively real.

As you already remarked, she is unlikely to ever receive any real time for her acts (as stated, I personally don't even care if this case was successfully prosecuted and whether she served time or not). That however, does not lessen or mitigate our obligation to our milieu. As nurses, we need to protect not just the integrity of our calling but also society at large when and where we can. Identifying a criminal (especially one who seeks to work under the guise of our professional mantle), so that others would not suffer potential harm seems a reasonable responsibility and duty on our part, IMHO.

Quark09 · Dec 13, 2010

As nurses, we need to protect not just the integrity of our calling but also society at large when and where we can. Identifying a criminal (especially one who seeks to work under the guise of our professional mantle), so that others would not suffer potential harm seems a reasonable responsibility and duty on our part, IMHO.

I definitely don't completely disagree with you, but (playing Devil's Advocate) we are also a profession that seeks to rehabilitate alcoholics and drug abusers who steal narcotics within our ranks, rather than going straight to criminal prosecution, sometimes to the detriment of others concerned.

bagladyrn, RN · Dec 13, 2010

To those who advocate "letting it go", imagine this scenario. No charges and she is able to get into another program. Three or four years from now she is the home health nurse going to your grandmother's house. How does that picture look?

Or on the unit - really want to share a locker room with this woman?

Forgiveness is NOT about "letting it slide". The individual still needs to pay the consequences of their actions.

Quark09 · Dec 13, 2010

Forgiveness is NOT about "letting it slide". The individual still needs to pay the consequences of their actions.

Well, no one has suggested this student be let off the hook. She's being expelled, which (at least to many people) would be a huge thing.

And as I previously mentioned, what about the RN who steals narcotics for months before being caught? It's still stealing; just not money - it's someone's oxy/dilaudid/fentanyl. In the process, patients who needed that medication were probably in some pretty significant pain. Does that nurse go to jail? Rarely, the first time. He or she gets suspended, a notation on their license, and has to go through rehab. What's the relapse rate on nurses who head back to work after the suspension is lifted?

I just don't agree with shutting the door in her face, forever.

Emergency RN · Dec 13, 2010

I definitely don't completely disagree with you, but (playing Devil's Advocate) we are also a profession that seeks to rehabilitate alcoholics and drug abusers who steal narcotics within our ranks, rather than going straight to criminal prosecution, sometimes to the detriment of others concerned.

That is a very good point that you brought up and frankly, I'm glad you did.

The idea of substance abuse clouding judgment is nothing new, and it is accepted as rationale for judicial forgiveness, often resting upon confirmation of the individual's ability at recognition of the extent of their problem and their strong desire to change such destructive behavior. However, in the OP's story, that did not seem the case. The only clear cut thing that I saw was she was basically offering herself a five finger discount on everyone else's stuff.

Additionally, in regards to your suggestion, do we forgive their transgressions while under the effects of their illness; or would that be up to the courts? Having a subject arrested, and processed, and then perhaps getting whatever counseling that is needed is probably the best course, IMHO. Doing so does not preclude treatment options if such needs become later identified during the course of processing.

***Sidebar*** BTW, in my career, I personally knew of several RN's who stole or diverted narcotics; all were given suspended sentences and sent to rehab, and returned to work with restricted licenses for a year. However, once the restrictions were lifted, all ultimately recidivated and suffered revocation. I don't know if any actually served time, but all lost their jobs. Damned shame what drugs can do to people. :uhoh3:

Quark09 · Dec 13, 2010

Having a subject arrested, and processed, and then perhaps getting whatever counseling that is needed is probably the best course, IMHO. Doing so does not preclude treatment options if such needs become later identified during the course of processing.

This is true... and I guess that should she complete a court-compelled treatment program, returned the money, and showed by her words and actions that she is remorseful - there are nursing programs that would take her. Additionally, I've also read of licenses being granted conditionally (in Illinois, anyway) after having a "crime of moral turpitude" on their record. It's pretty much up to her whether she's going to admit her mistake and make amends; if she were to do that, I would be more confident in her ability to eventually become a nurse. There are quite a few people here who've had a misspent youth - I know I had a few nights of crazy parties and wild road trips - all [thankfully] before the advent of facebook photo albums and the land of awkward status updates . Some of us have become the better for growing up and being given second chances.

allnurses Guide · Dec 13, 2010

. . . . I know this woman needs psychiatric help, not criminal prosecution. Unfortunately our society does not help the mentally ill. She certainly committed a crime, but why? What else is going on in this womans life? I have been thinking about this since Thursday. I am not angry and vengeful. I'm concerned about her and the people in her path. I'm praying that if the police get involved that her family will clue in that she has issues they need to help her with. This is a 26 year old woman. I can't just call her parents as if she were a minor. I'm tryin to look at all of the possible outcomes and which would truly benefit the student and society...it's not been an easy time and I do appreciate all of your opinions!

The same people who call us cruel for causing this person to suffer and not getting the whole story seem to have no problem calling you harsh, indecisive, driven by a bruised ego, acting out of fear about your "lack of control" and feeling of helplessness. I'm still surprised when people include in their condemnations of someone else's ethical/moral decisions demonstrate the same thing in their pontificating replies.

I'd like to point out that when the "more to the story" facts played out they suggested that their not getting the whole story and pre-judging was of more lasting consequence than yours as it is exposing classmates and patients to risk of harm to their person (by diverting from patient care) and their property. If it were the other way around that person would be facing the logical consequences of breaking the law.

There is an underlying message here that insinuates that a nurse, because they are a nurse, has an obligation to accept as a sign of their selfless compassion all manner of behavior that any other person wouldn't think twice about whether or not to pursue legal remedy. Anything that smacks of that just demoralizes us further than we already are about the expectation of martyrdom coming from our own ranks and the public at large, apparently. I think we should call it out when we see it, because it is still so ingrained in our psyche that we can't see it when it is occuring.

greenfiremajick · Dec 13, 2010

i've read all 12 pages of responses, and what i haven't seen anyone comment about is the sheer invasion of having someone go into your purse, finger through your things and end up taking something. purses are private. even my husband doesn't go into mine -- his choice. whether the thief took $20 or $100 or just the lucky silver dollar the op's late grandmother gave her, it's an invasion on so many levels. i think the op is being very gracious not to be more vindictive on that account all alone.

if i could find the person who broke into my house, killed my dog and stole my grandmother's jewelry, i'd probably be far less kind. an eye for an eye? maybe not. but i'd sure like to give my martial artist husband a few minutes alone with the person!

i am a total animal lover and hearing that your dog was killed sickens me and causes my heart to twitch in sympathy. sorry for your loss; for everything, but overridingly so, for the loss of your dog.

greenfiremajick · Dec 13, 2010

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

But it sounds so funny! "please do not make assumptions about my modicums." That's great stuff!

1louise1 · Dec 13, 2010

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

actually, it's part joke. but it means a small quantity of something. so it means what i think it means. please don't change the subject.