STR8 vs Gay Male RN

hbscott · Jan 30, 2004

Originally posted by Rocknurse
Anyway, in answer to what you said, people should be prepared to make a stand about unwanted sexual advances.

I agree totally. Trouble is when I "made my stand" I got no support from my immediate supervisor, Department Head, and Director of Nursing (all female).

Let's make this clear. Another male nurse who was doing the interviewing offered me a new position in an Oncology setting in exchange for sex. When I sought grievance redress for this obviously inappropriate act I got no support at all.

I could go on but I think you get the message. Unfortunately this was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back and started my exodus from nursing.

And just so that I am clear, the issue here is unwelcome sexual advances and inappropriate sexual politics. I expected better from the nursing profession and was sorely disappointed by the so-called "nursing leadership" at that time when I sought appropriate remedy.

I just hope I can overcome the bitterness that continues to linger. I gave so much to nursing and right now all I have in my heart is festering anger. I need to fix that!

-HBS

kbstudent · Jan 30, 2004

Why are you even asking????? Do you not have more important things to worry about?? This is a non-issue.

mother/babyRN, RN · Jan 30, 2004

Wow, I was surprised to see how touchy people who answered this simple question seemed to be...I haven't actually thought about it, but any gay nurse, male or female I have worked with I judged not on their sexuality but how they performed as nurses, and how we got along as co workers and friends...

Gosh, can't a person ask a simple question?

I have to say that when I just graduated from nursing school I did work with a gay male nurse who taught me all I needed to know about dating and dealing with men....He, after all, was an expert....Nurses are people and male or female, gay or heterosexual, I personally have not encountered any situation where this subject was even an issue....

J. B. · Jan 30, 2004

The one who started this discussion asked the question I think out of courioisty.

It realy should be a non issue but witht he sive of this discussion posted since in shuch a short period of time it is very apparent it is a subject that has need of discussion.

HBScott

Your experience is horendious and as with any treatment sinular to what ever sex or sexual preference is not acceptable. With no support provided in such an experience is irrehensable for those in authority.

I wish you well in resolving your angar. You have my support man what little that actually can mean.

After 24 years I havent had any such an experience. I however am working in the direction of building a business and I plan on leaving the bedside as soon as it is possible. Im coming on 50 and it a need both psychological as well as Physical.

Take Care fellow colleague.

I know you will fine a way.

JB

FNP grrl · Jan 30, 2004

Originally posted by hbscott
...For me the issue is only relevant when I am mistaken for a gay male and people act on that mistaken assumption....

While in nursing school both my male nursing professors solicited me for sex (one professor backed off when I declined and one remained persistent until I graduated). I also had a male nurse manager approach me for sex in exchange for a favorable recommendation for a promotion. When I reported this to my "chain of command" (all female) I was not taken seriously and was made to feel like a total idiot for reporting the incident...

HBS:

I am infuriated to hear that you went through such heinous sexual harassment situations- not once, but THREE times, all perpetrated by other NURSES. The fact that you got no support whatsoever from the administrative powers-that-be in the hospital is not only disgusting- it's downright ILLEGAL. I assume you didn't go above your professors' heads & report them- and i assume it was because you felt like you were in a powerless, no-win situation (like what happened at the hospital)- easy to understand considering you were a student at the time.

in each case you were harassed by someone who had power over you- professors and a manager. This is how it often is w/ sexual harrassment- so that the person being harrassed is in a very untenable position (because of lack of power) & that makes it much more likely that the perpetrators get away with this kind of behavior without consequence.

Nobody should have to put up w/ this kind of treatment- gay, straight, male, female. It's immoral, unethical, an abuse of power, and ILLEGAL. And anyone who reports this kind of harassment deserves to be listened to & taken totally seriously; gender & sexual orientation are irrelevant (or should be irrelevant- but i know it's not the reality).

There are workplace (and university) sexual harrassment laws/rules designed to protect people from what you went through- and i would urge anyone who has this kind of bullsh*t thrown at them while in school or at work pursue it to the full extent you can. go up the chain of command if those on the bottom don't listen or take you seriously. HBS, perhaps it's not too late for you to do something....look at it this way, you might be able to stop it from happening to the next one who comes along- as well as getting vindication for yourself. Have you thought of getting a lawyer? I'd seriously consider it.

Ok, all that said, i want to touch on the first part of your post that i quoted above...i do not consider this a case of 'mistaking you for a gay male & acting on it'...i consider a student being propositioned by professors or a nurse being offered a job in exchange for sex to be SEXUAL HARASSMENT. period.

as other posters have pointed out, this kind of thing is something women have suffered at the hands of men in power for...well, forever. male-to-female sexual harassment doesn't occur because the men mistake the women they teach or supervise for actual harlots- it is essentially a display of power.

i understand that these 3 a**holes all mistakenly assumed you were gay---but to me, that is NOT the real problem w/ what they did. the real problem is that they tried to dominate you in a power play. i can guarantee if you took those same men & made them heterosexual, the chance that they would behave in similar ways toward women would be very high. a rat is a rat is a rat, ya know? the only difference is that male-to-female sexual harassment is 'on the radar' so to speak, while sexual harassment directed at men really isn't (yet). so they might not 'try as much' with women these days, simply b/c the chances of not being able to get away w/ it are greater.

sigh........we still have a long way to go it seems. anyhow, i know this all veers from the OP's original question (hey, where is the OP anyhow????)- but i really thought it deserved some time & attention. it's a very important issue, imo.

hbscott · Jan 30, 2004

Thanks for the voiced support. I think we all agree that sexual orientation is not a relevant issue in regard to nursing competency.

As I stated in my earlier post (the one that answered the OP's original question) the two males that passed boards in my RN-BSN program where me (straight) and my friend (gay). Sexual orientation had no bearing on our ability to be "good" nurses.

I did seek legal counsel for the cited incident in the work setting but was told since I had no "proof" that my case was weak and that if I pursued the issue the offender's seniority would have more influence since the organization apparently was supporting him as evidenced by the official response of management in nursing service.

I did not seek legal counsel for the incidents in the University setting due to my fear of being humiliated and/or discredited before I completed my course of education. I did approach a trusted professor for advice and was told the offender was "harmless" and don't take it so seriously. The other professor only solicited me for sex once and when I said no that was it. We also remained friends until he died of complications secondary to AIDS.

It just wasn't one incident that caused me to flee nursing, there were many. As I said in yet another post:

"The issue? I would have thought that nursing culture (i.e., the nursing profession); would have been more proactive and sympathetic on grievance redress for those issues noted above. What I found was a profession (and culture) pretty much unsympathetic to my experiences and reported concerns when grievance redress was pursued. Why is that?"

And I also said:

"I think my frustration with nursing was exacerbated by my sense of expectation (probably unrealistic) that the nursing profession was above reproach. I soon learned differently and the important lesson learned is that we are all human even when we strive to be the best we can be."

So if I have offended anyone with my posts, I don't know what more I can say. I have only reported to you my experience, my responses to that experience and what I am doing today. Maybe from that WE ALL can learn something.

-HBS

FNP grrl · Jan 31, 2004

HBS-

i just wanted to say that your posts didn't offend me at all. i'm just sorry you got treated so badly. your experience reminds me so much of what women went through (& still do go through sometimes) when they first started to take a stand against sexual harassment; their complaints were minimized, invalidated, and met with hostility. they were told they had no "proof" (i mean come on! the only way to 'prove' it is to have little bitty video cameras hidden in your scrub pocket &/or tape the conversations on spy-size recorders hidden cleverly in your stethescope- please!!) it's all part of a 'blame/shame-the-victim' mentality we have imbedded in our culture when it comes to sexual crimes.

this has been an eye-opener for me- though i realized that men were sometimes victims of SH, i have never heard a first-hand account like yours.

actually it drives home the point that we can't let gender & sexual orientation determine how we perceive someone; in your case, it sounds like your male gender kept you from getting fair treatment. and that's just wrong.

well i wish you the best HBS.

Chrislynn2003 · Jan 31, 2004

Basically it doesn't matter- we are all nurses. Why this curiosity anyway?

Christine

FNP grrl · Jan 31, 2004

Originally posted by RNPATL
... I think we need to define what it is that we are talking about. If an individual makes a pass (i.e. wants to ask another person out for a drink or movie or something like that) whether it is male to male, female to male or male to female or female to female .... I do not consider that sexual harassment.

Now, if the individual does not take no for an answer, even after you tell them no and make it clear that you feel you are being harassed, then that is sexual harassment...

i agree w/ this. i would only add one caveat:

with rare exception, i think when someone in an obvious position of professional power propositions someone much 'lower on the food chain' even one time (teacher-student is the best example...but so is CEO-secretary, senator-congressional page, doctor-patient etc etc), that also constitutes sexual harassment. if the two have the hots for each other, then i think they need to rearrange things so they are not in the professional relationship any more. (i am not talking about peers dating each other at work -though that can be problematic too).

FNP grrl · Jan 31, 2004

Originally posted by ADNRN
OK, I'll play.

I think nursing is hard work, like working on a loading dock. It surprises me that gay men and straight women would be in that field, and as far as women go, they pretty much dominate it. It seems unusual to me, as it would if I learned that 95% of all logging was done by women.

I never said that females aren't interested in hard work that requires physical strength, how would I know, not being one? All I know is what I see, and most physical jobs are male dominated. Don't blame me--blame the world. Besides, obviously females are interested in nursing, and it's a hard job. So, so much for my theory...

thanks for answering.

i am still left wondering why you find it surprising gay men do 'hard work' like nursing? to me (and maybe i am misunderstanding), this sounds like you are making the assumption that gay men are typically weaker than straight men or not as capable of physical labor or are mostly hairdressers (or something like that). while some gay men might fit neatly into these kind of stereotypes, lots & lots & lots don't. lots of gay men are more 'he-man' than the average straight guy. and i know plenty of straight guys who have no interest in or ability to do hard physical labor.

as for being surprised that women dominate nursing...i would suggest doing a bit of reading on the history of the nursing profession. when you look at the social/historical context of how nursing as a profession evolved, there is really nothing in the least bit surprising about how it came to be female-dominated.

your comment about not being able to know something because you are not a woman seems evasive to me. i mean, i'm not a man, i'm not straight, i'm not elderly, i'm not from indonesia, i'm not a quaker, i'm not native american, i'm not a teacher--etc etc--but that doesn't mean i can't have any knowledge or understanding or empathy for what it might be like to be someone else.

i'm not 'blaming' you- or anyone- about physical jobs being male-dominated. i don't have a problem with the fact that physical jobs are male-dominated; men are, overall, physically bigger & stronger than women. it makes sense.

i guess i don't really understand equating logging (for example) with nursing in the 'physical jobs that straight men are more likely to do' line of thought. nursing is physically demanding, but it requires more physical stamina & endurance than it does raw strength or large size. women, who labor & birth babies, have never been strangers to endurance & stamina. it also requires a host of other skills that seem genderless to me. and there are lots of things about nursing that have long been linked w/ traditional 'female' roles (which is the historical context again).

personally, i am delighted that more men are seeking nursing as a profession, just like i am delighted that women are doing things that used to be exclusively male, like firefighting and being a corporate CEO.

gij1 · Jan 31, 2004

Take a moment and THINK. Does your question even have any rationale to it?

SmilingBluEyes · Jan 31, 2004

Iwould like to go on record as saying:

I welcome any conscientious, competent, hard-working person as a nurse.

Sexual orientation does not matter

Transexuality (a hot issue in another thread) does not matter

Male/female does not matter

Race does not matter

Religious preference does not matter

As long as you are caring, and somewhat NON-harshly judgemental, I want you by my side or caring for my loved ones. That is what should matter to us all.