12-Step Coercion

debstorlie · Jun 21, 2004

in reading through some of your other comments, it appears to me that you have a problem, how can you care for patients with such a strong bias against religion? aa works, and that is all that should be important to anyone that is in the health profession. perhaps if more people believed in god we wouldn't to have this discussion.

anyone who might believe that aa is not religious can read chapter 3 of this book:
http://www.morerevealed.com/books/resist/index.html
not to mention that numerous federal and state courts have ruled aa to be religious.

MoJoeRN,C · Jun 21, 2004

Great post, Dixiedi! I too gave up on this thread a long time ago.......it just wasn't worth the aggravation to try to open some peoples' minds. Human beings will go to amazing lengths to avoid taking responsibility for their own failings, admit they need help, and do whatever it takes to get it. Now, I'm just as stolidly in favor of the separation of church and state as anyone who's posted here, but the 12-step programs have helped millions of people the world over (myself included); otherwise state BONs would not mandate attendance as a condition of keeping or regaining nursing licenses when substance abuse---or the appearance of it---is a problem.
YES, there should be alternatives offered to those for whom the mere mention of a higher power is anathema. But as an alcoholic myself, I believe that the public trust---not to mention patients' lives---are too important to give an impaired nurse the choice NOT to undergo some kind of treatment, whether it's AA/NA, Serenity Lane, or whatever is available locally. Dixiedi is right in that no program can force a person to stop drinking/using; however, if s/he is not forced to at least confront the possibility of having a problem, s/he will just go on doing whatever s/he was doing. What motivation is there to change when there are no consequences to one's poor choices or bad behaviors? And how can one even begin to change when s/he doesn't even recognize that a problem exists?
That's one of the things 12-step programs do best: they work at breaking through the denial. Only when the barriers are down can any program work, and that's why AA/NA is the gold standard for substance abuse treatment. 'Nuff said.

Amen. I've noticed some "mandated" per judge attendees at 12 step meetings. These have had to have papers signed by the chair person of a set number of 12 step meetings a week. We have several members who started out attending "because they had to" and now attend "because they truely want to". Thats part of the step which "restores us to sanity" They can even thank the judge for heading them in the direction of AA. Now that's real recovery.

hypnotic_nurse · Jun 21, 2004

MoJoe, do you practice Zen?

One of my favorite Buddhists often utilizes the quote about students and teachers. :)

MoJoeRN,C · Jun 21, 2004

MoJoe, do you practice Zen?
One of my favorite Buddhists often utilizes the quote about students and teachers. :)

Truth is truth, no matter the source. :rolleyes: :)

Quailfeather · Jun 21, 2004

Dixiedi says:

I quit posting in here several days ago becasue I realized that nothing is going to be said to make an individual who is looking for any excuse he/she can, including religion or lack of it, to not accept they have a problem and in order to keep their license they must follow the rules which may be uncomfortable or even down right disgusting!

Dixie, are you saying that you honestly believe that everyone who rejects the program of AA is in denial or rationalizing their way to their next drink? If so, you are greatly misinformed. More people sober up without AA than they do with it. Just because someone is offended by the "spiritual principles" in AA, doesn't mean that they deny they have a serious problem with alcohol. Rejecting AA is not synonymous with refusing to accept that a problem exists. I once had a serious problem with alcohol abuse. According to the DSM IV, I did not meet the criteria for alcohol dependency, but my therapist and I both agreed that I was headed in that direction. So I embarked on my personal odyssey to find help in overcoming the devastating addiction that threatened to destroy me and everything that I held dear. I went to AA and attended meetings 5 times a week for nearly 3 years. However, due to my personal religious philosophy, I was unable to integrate my views with those inherent in the program of AA. I even read the book, The Zen of Recovery, by Mel Ash in an attempt to find a way to work the 12-steps without compromising my beliefs, but only incurred the wrath of others, including my sponsor, who insisted that I read only the Big Book and work the steps exactly as Bill Wilson wrote them. It was a no-win situation that created a cognitive and philosophical dissonance which utimately compelled me to leave AA and seek a secular alternative. It has been nearly 5 years since my last drink and I maintain an honest and empowering sobriety by utilizing concepts that I have learned from SMART Recovery (Self-Management And Recovery Training) as well as Rational Recovery, SOS, and LSR. I no longer have a problem with alcohol because I simply do not drink, ever. My past patterns of alcoholic drinking forged a dark and twisted road to self-destruction that I might quickly find myself travelling, once again, if I were to ever pick up a drink. Does this sound like denial to you? Am I rationalizing or attempting to find an excuse to drink? I think not.

RNBSN1 · Jun 21, 2004

Well stated, Quailfeather.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Jun 21, 2004

Quailfeather, excellent post as always.

I think I too will bow out of this thread. It's been a great discussion for the most part and the last four or five pages have been repetitious. :)

serene992 · Jun 21, 2004

No offense but what is the point of this book other than negativism? Does the author have an alternative for helping those suffering alcoholics/addicts achieve a sober, happy and healthy life? There are two kinds of people in this world - those that see the glass as half full and those that see it as half empty. I for one feel as if I am being chocked to death when surrounded by negativity that abounds from the glass half empty theorists/people.As I said what is Stanton Peele's point?

Dixiedi · Jun 21, 2004

Dixiedi says:
Dixie, are you saying that you honestly believe that everyone who rejects the program of AA is in denial or rationalizing their way to their next drink? If so, you are greatly misinformed. More people sober up without AA than they do with it. Just because someone is offended by the "spiritual principles" in AA, doesn't mean that they deny they have a serious problem with alcohol. Rejecting AA is not synonymous with refusing to accept that a problem exists. I once had a serious problem with alcohol abuse. According to the DSM IV, I did not meet the criteria for alcohol dependency, but my therapist and I both agreed that I was headed in that direction. So I embarked on my personal odyssey to find help in overcoming the devastating addiction that threatened to destroy me and everything that I held dear. I went to AA and attended meetings 5 times a week for nearly 3 years. However, due to my personal religious philosophy, I was unable to integrate my views with those inherent in the program of AA. I even read the book, The Zen of Recovery, by Mel Ash in an attempt to find a way to work the 12-steps without compromising my beliefs, but only incurred the wrath of others, including my sponsor, who insisted that I read only the Big Book and work the steps exactly as Bill Wilson wrote them. It was a no-win situation that created a cognitive and philosophical dissonance which utimately compelled me to leave AA and seek a secular alternative. It has been nearly 5 years since my last drink and I maintain an honest and empowering sobriety by utilizing concepts that I have learned from SMART Recovery (Self-Management And Recovery Training) as well as Rational Recovery, SOS, and LSR. I no longer have a problem with alcohol because I simply do not drink, ever. My past patterns of alcoholic drinking forged a dark and twisted road to self-destruction that I might quickly find myself travelling, once again, if I were to ever pick up a drink. Does this sound like denial to you? Am I rationalizing or attempting to find an excuse to drink? I think not.

No, I NEVER say EVERYONE and literally mean EVERY. There are always exceptions to everything and I would think as nurses (educated individuals) we would all know that. However, I have noticed that when someone fails to make their point they do tend to nit pick at the other posters who have not listed every possible exception. Just another method diversion. Some folks spend their whole life building that skill. Diverting that is.

I am quite sure many people can overcome the affects of extended over-use of alcohol, but I would think that would be the very few from what I have read (and no, I do not have those resources available.) I, and apparently a lot of other people, becasue it is posted here, believe AA and other groups do a great job. It's not for everybody, nothing is for evderybody, but unless it is given a chance and not negated on religious grounds some folks will never know.

koan · Jun 21, 2004

A.A. works, religions do not (think about it)

I hold this understanding too!! The 12 step program is NOT a religion. (But I can easy to understand why people may get confused on this account.)
Religions involve dogmas, "scriptures", religious leaders, formal prayer, and giving very a specific definition to a god or gods; Religion involves theology. This is not true for 12 step programs. Although 12 step programs involves the notion of a "higher power", no detailed definition should be given to that "higher power". An individual 12 step group can have their higher power be the group conscious itself and should leave room for an atheist to say no formal definitive god exists. Rather, I would say that 12 step programs are "spiritual" in nature. In my mind, one can be spiritual and still proclaim that no god exists. Spirituality simply involves some kind of work or process towards inward peace through heavy self examination; it involves a deeply honest understanding of one's self in relationship to one's self and others. Spirituality MAY involve a "higher power". But that "higher power" can be anything or anyone or even any diety other than self.
Yes. 12 step programs was founded by a group of people with religous backgrounds. But it is my understanding that this group specifically helped design these programs not to be religious in nature. It was more important to them that people overcome their alcoholism, NOT pay homage to a specific diety.
It is true that in the U.S., the term "God" can frequently be heard mentioned in meetings. Let's face it, many people in the U.S. come from Jewish or Christian backgrounds. Personally, I would have a problem with ANY individual 12-step group if it goes from spirituality to religous (as mentioned above). I would hold that individual group accountable for becoming religious like and stray away from the intended focus of the 12 step program. Usually, though, the focus is on "working the program"; taking that journey down the road of self-honesty and working to make a very specific change in one's life: to stop drinking.
For clarification's sake, anyone can "confess" or have "faith" or "meditate" or even engage in "prayer" and not conform to any specific religion. Yes, these terms can be easily applied in a religious context. But these terms can be applied OUT and away from of a religious context as well (except, for "prayer", maybe). One can easily "confess" or experience "faith" in something or "meditate" and still hold the belief that dieties do not exist. And prayer? A group of people reciting a verse together sounds like prayer. Should not hear a lot of formal prayers at 12-step meetings, though. If you do, request in a group conscious meeting that they not take place. Remember, the focus is NOT on worship or defining a diety. The focus is on stopping drinking. Period.

tommyperkins · Jun 22, 2004

If you are honest, open minded and willing, the teachers are all around you.

I'll be honest, open-minded and willing. I just wanted to ask you a few questions since you posted your credentials and also said you were a long-time member of AA, so I thought you would be well-informed enough to answer some basic questions. I don't want to take up a lot of your time so for the most part the answers can be short. Some people on this forum who are obviously familiar with AA claim it is not religious. What about it? Is AA religious? And here are a few more questions:

Is alcoholism a disease?

More than ninety percent of treatment programs in the U.S. are 12-step treatment programs. Is this not really religious indoctrination rather than medical treatment? Is treatment in the U.S. based on medical science or is it based on religion?

Overall, is alcohol/drug treatment in the U.S. successful?

Can you explain to me, in scientific terms, the role the 12-steps play in treatment?

Several people have said that in AA your higher power can be a tree or a doorknob. Is this true? Can a tree or a doorknob actually remove a person's character defects?

Step 6: "Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character."

If so, can you explain, in scientific terms, how a tree or doorknob can do this?

tommyperkins · Jun 22, 2004

In reading through some of your other comments, it appears to me that you have a problem, how can you care for patients with such a strong bias against religion? AA works, and that is all that should be important to anyone that is in the health profession. Perhaps if more people believed in God we wouldn't to have this discussion.

Why do you think I have a bias against religion? I am a Christian.