Spin Off: Nurse abuse?

[MIcrunchyRN]

Ok this is a slight spin off of the "Nurse fired for calling police" thread.

A) As a nurse have you experienced any physical or sexual abuse?

B) Was there any circumstances where you experienced or a coworker experienced abuse that was maybe at fault of the yourself or co-worker?

I ask this because us as nurses can do things to people that they don't necessarily want done (i.e. catheters, iv's etc), and can result in people lashing back. I believe Woody gave IV example. I gave example of swatting at my nurse when I asked her to not touch me during a single contraction while in labor and she wouldn't. (both in other thread) I have also seen nurses/doctors do things to patients with patient begging them to stop and they dont (again woody's IV example).

Last question:

C) if its ok for nurse to call police on patient, does patient have same rights to call police on staff? (say in situations where mentally coherent patients ask for something to be stopped like iv and staff doesn't?)

[WhoNeedsaShot?]

I was 24 wks preggo, been out-patient at hosp for 5 days, for IV antibiotics, still not well, went to diff hosp (Womens hosp)on day 6 or 7. They admitted me, well this little nurse was trying to get a blood sample, OMG, I was dehydrated, my veins were fried, and she stuck me 8 times!! Now I have a very high tolorence for pain and I don't mind IVs or Sticks, but let me tell you! After that 8th time, I stood up crying and I told her that she was not sticking me again, and she was like "Oh I am so sorry" and she went and got another nurse, and I told her, You have 2 chances. . She looked at my veins, and said I'll be back, she came back with a Dr. and he got my blood from my femoral artery....... I was happy!! I didn't hit, I didn't even yell....... But God only knows what would have happened had that first little nurse tried to stick me a 9th time:devil:....... LOL

[nerdtonurse?, BSN, RN]

"Their lack of coping mechanisms does not constitute my becoming a punching bag. "

:yeahthat:

[nerdtonurse?, BSN, RN]

FYI, I tell a pt up front, "I'll stick you twice, and if I can't get a vein, I'll go get the best sticker on the floor." If I look at a LOL who's dehydrated, every vein blown, etc., I just go straight to the phone and call one of the ICU nurses I know (she could find a vein in drywall).

And if someone's A/O and they tell me to stop (stop putting in the foley, stop putting in the IV, etc.) I do, document, and call the doc. What I've noticed is when we've had to call a doc, he'll come up to do it, and they are a lot rougher on the pt than any nurse I've ever seen.

[MIcrunchyRN]

FYI, I tell a pt up front, "I'll stick you twice, and if I can't get a vein, I'll go get the best sticker on the floor." If I look at a LOL who's dehydrated, every vein blown, etc., I just go straight to the phone and call one of the ICU nurses I know (she could find a vein in drywall).

And if someone's A/O and they tell me to stop (stop putting in the foley, stop putting in the IV, etc.) I do, document, and call the doc. What I've noticed is when we've had to call a doc, he'll come up to do it, and they are a lot rougher on the pt than any nurse I've ever seen.

see then isn't that abuse by doc?

I personally while in labor swatted in the general direction of my nurse, never made contact (that I'm aware of, she said I didn't when after he was born I appologized profusely). But I swung at her in her direction because she wouldn't listen when I asked her to not touch me and give me a minute. I could feel myself loosing control during my contraction. She was so focusd on her task at hand (mind you not a situation that wasn't life thretening, jsut protocol). She didn't listen to me asking her to wait a minute, after this contraction, stop. Finally I swatted in her direction and yelled "I said give me a minute!" In between contractions gave her an earful for not listening to me. I felt I had no other way to keep her away from me (because at that moment running away wasn't an option) and she didn't listen to my verbal warnings. Should she have charted that I refused EFM and called doc? No because I didn't refuse I simply asked for her to wait a minute. Should assult charges been filed and police called etc? I don't think so because I wouldn't have gotten to that point had she listened to me. (BTW Midwife and DH were also telling her to wait a minute). Were my actions appropriate? Probably not... but I felt I had used all of my options at that moment in time (I couldn't get up and run away mid contraction at 9cm.. just not posisble at that moment or I would have done that).

I also have witnessed a nurse get kicked at because she was doing a foley and pt was screming at nurse to stop it hurt .... nurse wouldn't stop.. got kicked. (Turns out 2nd foley went fine no issues because nurse #1 was inflatting balloon a little low in bladder at what they suspect was still in urethra and causing pt great pain). I still think that patient had every right to kick her nurse because the nurse didn't listen... and it wasn't until that point that the nurse got a clue.

Now i've also been on the recieving end of the abuse as well and I'm not saying all incidents are provoked by nurses (concussion from tele box, and being kicked into a wall are my highlights)... but was curious out of all of us who have been harrassed abused by patients how much of it potentially was because our actions or lack of actions. Or even someone else's actions?

I dunno lol I have a feeling the consensus will remain the same on here.

What about doing things like putting in largest IV because pt was rude etc? I've heard of that being common in some places...oh this patient is such a PITA let me get a 16g... ?

[VICEDRN, BSN, RN]

Please don't flame me...please?

I used to work as a paralegal...and I have worked some malpractice law. We would get calls from folks like these asking if this is malpractice. Someone already mentioned that it isn't unless the provider caused irreparable damage. What we did tell them is that they could call the police.

From what I understand from the attorneys I worked with (so this is *not* legal advice folks!): It is indeed considered assault in our state (Georgia) to perform medical procedures on a patient over their express objections. They can call the police and you can be taken to jail.

Chances of proving that you objected and the procedure continued? Virtually nill. Chances of the DA filing charges? Basically none. There is so little evidence to go by.

Most of the time people would talk about this issue, they would talk a lot about the sort of "implied authority" of the provider or the fear of being denied other treatment or fear of being sedated with medications because they pulled their arm away or whatever.

It always boiled my blood when I heard about this kind of stuff in OB which was where a lot of complaints like these come in from. (Its just an observation!)

[MIcrunchyRN]

It always boiled my blood when I heard about this kind of stuff in OB which was where a lot of complaints like these come in from. (Its just an observation!)

From personal experience OB was the worst. With my son my nurse was great minus that one experience. My nurse with my first wasn't so nice.. and that implied authority was very traumatic for me.

My friend also suffered same thing. Doctor came in saying "we need to break your water to speed things up". SHe refused and doc tried saying she couldn't refuse. Me loud mouth that I am told her she can refuse anything... THEN doc explained why she wanted to do it. (apprently heart rate was low but I never seen it)

Then while friend was pushing. She was "taking too long" (She was first time mom and had been pushing for 15 minutes). Doc said she wanted to do episiotomy to speed thing up. Again friend said no. Doc said she needed it. Friend said no and I told her she can refuse. Doc again threw a fit and said she needed to get baby out in next push or she woud do episiotomy and made scissor motions. I cringed. (BTW HR was 135 the whle time and they had scalp monitor on). Friend thankfully pushed her brains out and got baby out in one huge push. But the doc was out of line.

I will also be labor coach for my friend come end of october... will be interesting and I hope and pray she has an experience like my 2nd and not my first.

Sad to know as a patient who might have truely undergone abuse by provider it can be hard to prove in those cases. Sad too that patients use it as a way to try and sue. I'm glad as a provider that someone cannot willy nilly try to get me in trouble, and I hope I never put someone in the situation they feel they have no other choice to hit me to get me to stop what i"m doing.

[RN1982]

Ohhh...I would dare that doc to make those scissor motions with her hand. It wouldn't take me very long to get my foot in her face. "come on, cut me and see what happens...." That whole story enraged me.

[traumaRUs, MSN, APRN]

I have been physically assaulted as well as verbally assaulted and here in IL, it is a felony. I have pressed charges one time for a drunk man who hit me and spit on me. When we went to court, he said he shouldn't be held responsible because he was drunk?! Well, he had 120 days in the county jail to figure out that maybe he shouldn't get that drunk - lol!

I currently work in nephrology as an advanced practice nurse and though I've not been physically assaulted (I work in the outpt world at the moment), I have been verbally harassed. I absolutely refuse to stick around when the pt is swearing at me - no way, no how. Sometimes walking away is the better part of valor. (I know that isn't always possible).

[RN1982]

I have been physically assaulted as well as verbally assaulted and here in IL, it is a felony. I have pressed charges one time for a drunk man who hit me and spit on me. When we went to court, he said he shouldn't be held responsible because he was drunk?! Well, he had 120 days in the county jail to figure out that maybe he shouldn't get that drunk - lol!

I currently work in nephrology as an advanced practice nurse and though I've not been physically assaulted (I work in the outpt world at the moment), I have been verbally harassed. I absolutely refuse to stick around when the pt is swearing at me - no way, no how. Sometimes walking away is the better part of valor. (I know that isn't always possible).

Don't you love when people use their being drunk as an excuse for their actions. I'm glad you pressed charges. Sorry but no amount of intoxication gives someone the right to spit or hit somebody else. I bet he didn't even apologize for what he did.

[TheCommuter, BSN, RN]

I bet he didn't even apologize for what he did.

The assaultive patient or unruly family member never apologizes for their criminal actions because it's always someone else's fault (boo-hoo). "It's not my fault that I'm mad...you made me mad, so this is all your fault!"

Unfortunately, the mere thought of assuming personal responsibility for one's own fractious behavior seems to be impossible for the bottom-feeders who abuse nurses.

[MIcrunchyRN]

Ohhh...I would dare that doc to make those scissor motions with her hand. It wouldn't take me very long to get my foot in her face. "come on, cut me and see what happens...." That whole story enraged me.

It was very hard to be there as a friend and watch that. I'm glad this doc is no longer practicing at our hospital and has since moved out of state because my friend's postpartum care was also just as bad as her delivery. Had that OB seriously tried to do episiotomy I think her nurse would have gotten involved because the look on her face was the same shocked look.

I have been physically assaulted as well as verbally assaulted and here in IL, it is a felony. I have pressed charges one time for a drunk man who hit me and spit on me. When we went to court, he said he shouldn't be held responsible because he was drunk?! Well, he had 120 days in the county jail to figure out that maybe he shouldn't get that drunk - lol!

I currently work in nephrology as an advanced practice nurse and though I've not been physically assaulted (I work in the outpt world at the moment), I have been verbally harassed. I absolutely refuse to stick around when the pt is swearing at me - no way, no how. Sometimes walking away is the better part of valor. (I know that isn't always possible).

I never understand the people who get mad and swear and act like idiots. it really never makes the situation better. I actually ended up getting a concussion from a patient who was swearing at me (he was in soft restraints) and I just remained mum and sat there ignoring him. He later said he hit me because I didn't get mad when he swore at me. I was young and niave at the time or I would have pressed charges ... I was sent down to ER of hospital and told mild concussion and no one even mentioned that I could press charges if I wanted.

[GadgetRN71, ASN, RN]

I was always trained in nursing school that if you have a mentally stable patient and they refuse a treatment etc that the nurse needs to document this and not do the procedure etc. I always documented that the pt was noncompliant so they didn't try to lawyer up later and claim neglect or malpractice. Just educate the patient on what can happen if they refuse, document it, and leave them alone. One less thing I'll have to do anyway.

Now, in the OR, a lot of this goes out the window because our patients are not in their right mind because of anesthesia..a lot of the restraint protocols don't apply in the OR and PACU(as far as docs order) with good reason..Some people wake up swinging and trying to get off of the table-if they fall off that bed, they can be seriously hurt.

And I still think the patient that assaults his/her nurse needs to be reported to the police..when you are admitted to the hospital, you have to be aware that some things are going to be unpleasant, why stay in if you aren't going to let the staff do their job? Sign yourself out..

There is never an excuse for a patient to assault their nurse.