Socialized Medicine Part 2

I found this interesting article on the internet which I would like to share with the readers of my blog, and which I am sure many will find interesting, thought-provoking and extremely relevant to my current theme. This is written by a young aspiring politician in the UK. Nurses Announcements Archive Article

I found this interesting article on the internet which I would like to share with the readers of my blog, and which I am sure many will find interesting, thought-provoking and extremely relevant to my current theme. This is written by a young aspiring politician in the UK.

Quote
It's been a while since something got me so riled as the debates going on the in US about healthcare. So while the old political Dave is back I thought i would put my thoughts down.

In Europe, the arguments over universal healthcare were over decades ago: all that remains is a polite discussion of how best to fund them. But in the US, the idea that government should have any place in the relationship between doctor and patient remains controversial to many, and a red rag to a few. Less than 20% of Amerians believe their healthcare system is in crisis - a proportion that has not changed in 15 years. Based on healthcare insurance, supplemented for the over 65s, and Medicare for the poor, at best the system is good. So where is the problem? Well premiums are rising fast. We call it an excess, I believe you call it deductables. For almost 20% of those insured, deductables exceed $1000. A lot of fat cats are getting fatter on the backs of many who can ill afford to spend as much on insurance. At best healthcare in the US is outstanding. But as a sytem judged on quality, access, equity and healthy lives, US medicine lags behind the UK, Australia, Canada, Germany and New Zealand, according to the Commonwealth Fund. The US scores well on rapid access (second only to Germany). Americans however do not put equity, access and efficiency as high on their list and are seemingly unaware that their expensive system doesn't, on the whole, deliver good results. In 2007 the US spent 16.2% ($2.2trn) of GDP on healthcare, against the UK's 8.4%.

I think it is important that we both realise the reasons for the radically different national consciousness both our nations have. To do this we need a little history lesson. Britons, along with their neighbours in Europe, were for centuries forced to live under a system of government that abused their power, it's citizens and it's wealth. At a time when Britain enjoyed the largest modern Empire the world has ever seen along with the wealthiest economy it has ever had the majority of it's people IN Britain were left to starve. The Empire was built on the backs of the poor yet none of the wealth filtered down to them, they were in essence slaves of the Empire not subjects of the of the ruling nation. Consequently resentment showed itself in many ways, one of them being socialism and the other a want, even need, to free ones self from the ruling elite. The 'American' war of independence happened because those Europeans living in the new land had chose the second option. Centuries of maltreatment errupted when opportunity for a new nation presented itself. In wasn't infact a war of independence but a civil war, a revolution against the ruling elite and only happened because of centuries of social evolution. It was a chance that Europeans living in the mother nations didn't have. So you now have two sets of Europeans. On one side of the Atlantic the very same Europeans have now become Americans with a distrust at best and resentment at worst to socialist values. The reason for this resentment and mistrust is because they never needed the help of a socialist system, for they were already free from the shackles they once had. On the other side of the Atlantic however the struggle continued as did the resentment. Socialist movements grew and a shift in thinking eventually followed.

Now there are two events that changed things forever, the First and Second World Wars. A shift in thinking had now taken place. Europeans needed to be looked after and their nations needed to be nurtured and re-built. It is because of this that Europe has a different view of the role of government than America. The government is there to serve the people, but it is also there to look after its citizens. People were living in broken countries and were destitute. The vast majority of people simply could not afford medical costs and quite simply a welfare state wasn't an option it was a necessity. The state of the nations health had to become a politcal idea and it must remain that way.

You talk about equal opportunities in a way that makes it sound like a uniquely American idea, i assure you it is not. The most important word is not that off opportunity but that of equal - equality. All of us are equal, from the very rich to the very poor. We are all the same and as a result should all be treated in the same way. Most in Europe have had the opportunity to develop and they have been enjoying it on a national level for far longer than America. In 1955 a black man in London would have the same freedom and opportunity as a white man sitting next to him, i don't think the same can be said for the US. Freedom and equality for all or only if your face fits and you have the money?

An insurance system by way of private companies promotes resentment towards those who, for whatever reason, do not pay their way. You will always get free loaders and like you I have a deep distain for them. Believe me we have many of them in this country but i don't think we should let them ruin it for the majority of people who simply cannot afford to pay their way. Should we go back to the days of Oliver Twist and adopt a laissez farie attitude towards social care because of the few that abuse the system or should we maintain a level of national care that will continue to see increasing living standards for the masses? I pay 11% of my wage for National Insurance. That 11% will pay the bills if i lose my job; fix my arm if it is broken; provide money should i become too sick to work; give me a pension in my old age and provide me with a payment to help me cope with loss should my partner die. It also ensures that those same benefits apply to those who do not work but do I resent that? The answer is no. Should little Jonny down the road suffer in poverty because his mum is a drug addict and sponges of the state or should the state be there to provide cradle to grave care for him? What is the point in having equal opportunities if you can not reach them? If you begin life in the gutter it is almost impossible to benefit from such opportunities without a helping hand from the government.

In America there is simply a lack of consensus around the idea that universal healthcare is an ideal worth striving for. In Europe it was made part of our 'new start' after WW2 and we cannot imagine a world without it. Individualism brought us two world wars and saw millions dead. Those who weren't dead were forced to live in poverty. The US however saw no reason to abandon individualism, and now it is much harder to do so. While the protests have been orchestrated, they would not have occured at all unless they chimed with deep and strongly-felt sentiments.

I believe that by the strength of our common endeavor we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realize our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.

You see for us it is more than healthcare. Our National Health Service (NHS) is a reminder that the days of the lives described in Dickens novels are gone forever and while the NHS exists they will not return. For that reason we love our NHS and it should be the envy of the world.

Geek - probably, boring - certainly not....

Specializes in Rodeo Nursing (Neuro).
In America any time the Goverment gets involved in the day to day life of the individual it gets broken.

Not all, nor even I hope, most, but many conservatives seem to equate social order in any form with socialism. The belief that our government is our enemy is popular, but fails to consider where we would be without it. The main purpose of society is to protect our freedom, but I was taught growing up that freedom and responsibility are not seperable. Unlike what I read in the little handbook I got when I was learning to drive, driving is a right, not a privilege, but it is a right that comes with obligations, and it can be lost if those obligations aren't met. Much the same can be said of many, if not all, rights.

Conservatives tend to put a lot of value on property rights. So do I. What's mine is mine, and you can't have it. If you are bigger and stronger, or better armed, or sneakier, you might be able to take what's mine, but because we live in a society, if you do take whats mine, my neighbors will make you give it back. No matter how strong you are, the rest of us together are stronger. That isn't socialism, it's civilization.

Government of the people, for the people, and by the people doesn't mean you get to do anything you damned well please. It means we form a partnership to free ourselves from that which we cannot individually overcome and allow one another freedoms we would not otherwise enjoy. Anarchy is not freedom. A classic example of a limit to individual freedom is the old chestnut that you can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre and call it freedom of speech. That abuse of freedom jeapordizes freedoms of others even more fundamental than speech. I happen to be one of those who doesn't believe you should be able to carry an assault rifle into a crowded theatre, either.

You are free to consider me a socialist for that, but you would be mistaken.

A lot of people deplore the "socialism" the present government has introduced. They choose to ignore that it was a private sector run amuck that caused the current crises. And that's as true in healthcare as in banking or the automotive industry. Another poster suggested that nurses should be leaders in healthcare reform. Makes sense to me. But in the present paradigm, nurses don't feel much like leaders, to me. Government and quasi-government agences like Medicare and JCAHO tell us to how care for our patients, yes, but so do lawyers and accountants. I work in a public hospital, so profit is not one of our constraints, although not losing our butts is.

We don't turn away patients who can't pay, but even so, ability to pay does effect the care we give. When my Dad needed weeks of IV antibiotics that his insurance wouldn't cover, the hospital was prepared to keep him as an inpatient, even though the obvious best choice was home care. Fortunately, I have a decent job and not too many expenses, but not everyone has a family member who can take up the slack for the insurance companies.

(His new insurer would cover it--hurray for the free market!--but if he weren't on Medicare to begin with, a supplement wouldn't do much good, and he could never afford the full cost of coverage--hurray for socialized medicine!)

In the days before democracy, some people enjoyed nearly complete freedom. We called them kings. Everyone else lived pretty much at their whim, until we realized that a bunch of peasants, united, could unseat a king, and the masses increased their freedom at the expense of the few. We still don't have perfect freedom. Speed limits, for example, are a prime example of how a republic is undemocratic. Our leaders think they know better than we do, so they legislate a speed limit that almost no one obeys. It's a flawed system. Still, any speed limit would seem arbitrary to some. I do 75 mph on the Interstate (the limit is 70, tops, in WV) and people pass me like I'm standing still. A 90mph limit wouldn't make everyone happy, but it would put all of our lives at greater risk. So I live with a bit of goverment paternalism, in the hope I'll actually get to my destination, and I cheat just a little, because I'm a rebel.

It's called a social order, and flawed as it is, it's better than disorder.

Specializes in Critical Care.
We've actually seen quite a bit of how a free-market military would work -- the Shrub administration privatized and outsourced the military to a degree never before imagined. In Iraq and Afghanistan, we've been paying private contractors several times what we used to pay members of the US military to do the same jobs ...

Two words -- "Blackwater" and "Halliburton." Money well spent, right?

My point exactly. I think we should desocialize our entire military. Clearly private contractors have shown there's a profit to be made in the frontlines of national defense.

I think we should get the federal government out of the intelligence industry, too. We can have rival spy organizations competing for who provides the most accurate info.

Right? anyone?

Specializes in LTC-MDS.

I find most patients we take care of uses socialize insurance such as the primary payor MEDICARE, it's a goverment run program. I live in FLorida and to get in a nursing home, they usually refuse private insurance d/t all the stipulation. I'm glad someone made sense of private insurance. Your insurance is not tested until you get ready to use it and here all the run around. Oh, you can only have dental x-rays once every 2 yrs. I haven't seen any good insurance. I have a friend that do billing and the private insurance sometime takes 2 yrs or more to pay some bills, leaving the patients with the bill and the drama in the mean time. I agree the health care stinks and I don't want to stand in line for a small minor procedure. I have 4 years experience in the Emergency Room and at 2am guess who visit? the uninsure wanting a pregnancy test with c/o stomach pain or simple just want a day of from work w/o being fired. I am for whatever will give the majority better care. I went through nursing school being without insurance and that was scary, but hell I can't come up $1000 co-pay for MRI or even hospitalization.

We have 7 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT. That number is so big my brain hurts when I think about it.

Remmeber sooner not later our good President and his buddies in congress are going to raise our taxs.

On a tight bugget who can aford another 10 or 20 percent taken out of what they give you every two week.

I know I can't.

Hope this doesn't make your head hurt more but....Our National Public Debt is actually $11,735,583,324,142.28.

Oh, and please don't forget Obama's cap/trade tax which M.I.T. estimates will cumulatively cost a family of four $3,100 each year.

Specializes in Med-Surg, Critical Care, Public Health.
in america any time the goverment gets involved in the day to day life of the individual it gets broken.

the social security system is broke medicare and medicaid are broke.

if the government reimbursed the way it was suppose to for medicare and medicaide we wouldn't have this problem.

who's going to pay for it?

we have 7 trillion dollars in debt. that number is so big my brain hurts when i think about it.

remmeber sooner not later our good president and his buddies in congress are going to raise our taxs.

on a tight bugget who can aford another 10 or 20 percent taken out of what they give you every two week.

i know i can't.

yea i know tax the rich they can afford it.

can they?

they pay most of the taxes now,and they fund our hospital, our fire departments, first aid squads,our libaries...

promote reasonalbe tort reform so doctors won't be afraid to pratice. every patient gets the million dollar work up so the doctor won't get sued.

you said, "we have 7 trillion dollars in debt. that number is so big my brain hurts when i think about it"

how long did it took to accumulate? the answer is not 7 months. the major part of this debt arise from funding the fake war in iraq that was created by lies and deceit (wmd). do you remember what the deficit was when president clinton's successor took power? according to the iraq study group, total cost of the war amounted to 4 trillion.

i am curious. where were all the protestors, townhall meetings, demonstrations, gun-cowboys, and radio commentators, in addition to the cries about our children's future, the national debt, iraq war, haliburton corporations, thousands of lives lost and other detestable things that were done to disgrace this nation? do you know, if these actions that are taking place now were exercised then, things would have been different? think about it. really, where were everyone, there is no explanaion that can justify such partial, behavior.

healthcare is also a major distributor to the debt. for example: in 1980s- 247.3 billion dollars; 1999- costs quadrupled to 1.2 trillion; 2007- 2.3 trillion. elderly americans are living longer than expected, an usually require more health care. the elderly also make up 12.1% of the population. crowded emergency rooms is another factor in health care costs.

illustration

if you are on a budget, and your car is the only mean of transportation, you would have to pay to get it fix, if something is wrong. that means, money will be taken from your budget to do so, whether you like it or not. it is the same with the economy. president obama inherited the worst economy since the depression in the 1930s. money had to be spent to stabilize the economy, and to create jobs, in-spite of its unpopularity. job growth will not happen overnight.

it was crucial for the government to intervene, rather than sit back and do nothing? we all would be singing a different tune today, if the do nothing approach was taken. man do not have the perfect solution, but something is better than nothing to prevent further deterioration

My point exactly. I think we should desocialize our entire military. Clearly private contractors have shown there's a profit to be made in the frontlines of national defense.

I think we should get the federal government out of the intelligence industry, too. We can have rival spy organizations competing for who provides the most accurate info.

Right? anyone?

Article 1, Section 8 of our Constitution lists the enumerated powers delegated to our Congress. The last I checked, Socializing our Health Care was not one of them. The point you are trying to make doesn't make sense because Congress DOES have the power to grant Letters of Marque and to define and punish Offenses against the Law of Nations.

As to my knowledge there has not been an Official Declaration of War or an official Letter of Marque written. So I might stand with you in the debate on whether or not President Bush and the previous Congress used and President Obama and our current Congress are using the proper Constitutional rules and procedures to carry out our military mission in Iraq and Afghanistan. But to make a point as if Congress doesn't have a power to hire private agencies to help with our National Security is just ignorant nonsense.

MEDICARE/MEDICAID ARE NOT CURRENTLY BANKRUPT. Medicare is bankrupt by the definition that it is currently paying out more than it is receiving. Estimates of total insolvency is 2017.

WHAT ABOUT PUBLIC SCHOOLS-This is a State Government Role, NOT our Federal Government, THE ROADS/HIGHWAYS-Combination of State/Federal Government Role, THE MILITARY SYSTEM?-Role of the Federal Government, although it is Constitutional for States to have organized militia's and private military agencies. But they are subject to the Federal Government. ARE THEY DEMONIZED AS BEING SOCIALIST? -No because all but Public Schools are enumerated powers delegated to Congress. Health care is not an Enumerated Power. Therefore, Congress has NO authority over the States on this matter.

COULD YOU EVEN FATHOM WHAT WOULD BECOME OF THE ELDERLY IF MEDICARE WAS NOT IMPLEMENTED? If you do some reading and ask older people about health care back in the 1950's you'll find that even though some folks didn't have the ability to pay for care, nonetheless, they received it because our health care system could afford more charity services. The reason? The patient was the actual customer which naturally controlled costs. BACK IN 1965, MEDICARE WAS OPPOSED JUST LIKE TODAY, YET IT TURNED OUT TO BE FINE. It's currently paying out more than it is receiving. It'll be insolvent in 7 years. Medicare is a failed system.

THOUGH THIS IS A HEALTHY DISCUSSION, I DO NOT WANT TO CREATE ANY TENSION OR ANGER, DUE TO SOME OF ITS CONTENT. AS ADULTS WE MUST AGREE TO DISAGREE. THANK YOU-I take NO offense to people who hold different opinions. But far too many Americans formulate their opinion on the health care issue solely from emotion instead of a combination of emotion, knowledge, and history. Take you for example, have you ever read in entirety our Constitution and Bill of Rights?

Take care and Saude!
do you remember what the deficit was when president clinton's successor took power? ...

i am curious. where were all the protestors, townhall meetings, demonstrations, gun-cowboys, and radio commentators, in addition to the cries about our children's future, the national debt, iraq war, haliburton corporations, thousands of lives lost and other detestable things that were done to disgrace this nation? do you know, if these actions that are taking place now were exercised then, things would have been different? think about it. really, where were everyone, there is no explanaion that can justify such partial, behavior.

actually, when shrub was placed in office by the supremes, there was no deficit at all -- he inherited a big surplus from clinton (which he promptly squandered).

i and many others did protest and demonstrate against the war, for all the reasons you list -- and the right-wingers called us traitors, and accused us of treason and siding with the terrorists. back then, it was "you're with us or you're against us" when it came to the government's actions. they're sure singing a different tune now that the shoe is on the other foot -- suddenly, they've decided dissent is patriotic after all. (it's the blatant hypocrisy of the right wing that always gets me -- if you do it, it's wrong, if i do it, it's suddenly alright.)

Specializes in Med-Surg, Critical Care, Public Health.
take care and saude!

could you even fathom what would become of the elderly if medicare was not implemented? if you do some reading and ask older people about health care back in the 1950's you'll find that even though some folks didn't have the ability to pay for care, nonetheless, they received it because our health care system could afford more charity services. the reason? the patient was the actual customer which naturally controlled costs. back in 1965, medicare was opposed just like today, yet it turned out to be fine. it's currently paying out more than it is receiving. it'll be insolvent in 7 years. medicare is a failed system.

please have a more gentle and respectful tone in your words.

there is no logic to your argument. how large was the population growth back then? life expectancy in 1950 was expected to reach about 65-67, and government programs began to expand to cover health care costs. the department of health, education, and welfare in 1953 provided a method to coordinate reasearch and service programs. the government was also involved in eradicating many infectious illnesses. disability benefits were included in social security coverage for the first time in 1954. so you finally agree that the involvement of the government in healthcare was necessary back then, to reduced costs:yeah:now we are on the same page.

in the 1950s patients were treated for acute illnesses rather than longterm illnesses. group hospital insurance was in demand. there was very little competition compared with today. the increase in population/immigration including the elderly, pose a new problem in national health (aging and long term illnesses). according to the u.s. census bureau, the ratio of people under 65, to those over 65 will shrink from the current ratio of 9:1 to 5:1 by 2030. there's no doubt that medicare/medicaid funds will be depleted, if the current health care system is not reform. the public plan is detrimental to provide competition and lower health care costs.

question- do you think the government should be involved in the development and preparation of the h1n1 vaccine? please let me know

Specializes in Vents, Telemetry, Home Care, Home infusion.

not sure if your aware,but typing in all caps considered shouting ...see our terms of service

president obama inherited the worst economy since the depression in the 1930s. money had to be spent to stabilize the economy, and to create jobs, in-spite of its unpopularity. job growth will not happen overnight.

it was crucial for the government to intervene, rather than sit back and do nothing? we all would be singing a different tune today, if the do nothing approach was taken. man do not have the perfect solution, but something is better than nothing to prevent further deterioration

seriously, where do some of you people get your information??? i'm in awe!!!

the great depression was a direct result of our congress turning a blind eye to article 1, section 8 of our constitution by passing the federal reserve act of 1913 and also the use and abuse of consumer credit.

in the 1920's the federal reserve artificially lowered interest rates which resulted in easily obtainable credit. many banks loaned out 10 times as much credit as it required the borrower to deposit. many investors purchased stock with credit because of its easy access and because of the potential to make quick money without fronting it. this increased speculation and created a bubble. when the stock market started to turn down again it created massive panic and many investors sold/traded quickly because they were heavily invested using credit. because of the instability the panic created, banks started calling-in their loans. but the borrowers were unable to repay them which resulted in massive defaults and bko's. this resulted in many banks becoming insolvent. consumers lost confidence in the banks and many depositors withdrew all their money. with banks tightening credit lines, farming, construction and industry nearly came to a complete standstill which resulted in massive layoffs and unemployment.

fdr's spending did nothing to stimulate the economy. in fact, the federal regulations placed on businesses and the mandatory labor unions only stifled growth and the result was even greater amounts of unemployment. this unemployment was not only in america, but worldwide.

wwii created massive worldwide employment. wwii killed nearly 70,000,000 people which resulted in massive underemployment. that's what brought america out of the great depression. take care and saude!

Specializes in Rodeo Nursing (Neuro).

The point made was that Obama inherited the worst economy since the Depression. There may be valid comparisons between the two crises, but this is surely not the same country it was in the 1930's, nor is it the same world.

I do, however, confidently predict that if the economy is beginning to recover, as it appears, and if we enjoy eight years of prosperity during the Obama administration, Republicans will credit it to the brilliant foresight of the Bush Administration. After all, the prosperity of the Clinton years was clearly the product of Reaganomics, and the collapse under Bush was the fault of Clinton...you know, what with balancing the budget and stuff.

We poor, dumb liberals just can't understand these things.