Should BSNs be paid more?

pricklypear · Jul 31, 2005

I suppose some people could look at the humanities classes required as fluff. I don't. I learned something either about myself, other people, or the world in general in every one of those classes. Nursing is about people and their health. It is not restricted to basic technical skills. Those classes may not directly impact my nursing capabilities as far as hands-on skill, but they did contribute to my all around education. Which is part of what college is all about. I can't remember for sure, but I think my program only required 3 upper level humanities courses. The other classes I took that my ADN friends didn't were nursing related, such as statistics, research, community health, management, etc...

It bothers me when people refer to the degree I earned through hard work "fluff" and "of no value." Especially if they have not experienced that education themselves.

Doctors cite the cost of their education as part of the reason they get high salaries. If there were different levels of education within medicine (excluding PAs) you can bet that they would be having the same argument. Everywhere else in the business world is degree oriented. You get jobs and salaries based on your degree. 20y/o managers with some kind of Bachelor's degree in business start off making way more than the 20year veteran with a high school diploma.

grimmy, RN · Jul 31, 2005

i suppose some people could look at the humanities classes required as fluff. i don't. i learned something either about myself, other people, or the world in general in every one of those classes. nursing is about people and their health. it is not restricted to basic technical skills. those classes may not directly impact my nursing capabilities as far as hands-on skill, but they did contribute to my all around education. which is part of what college is all about. i can't remember for sure, but i think my program only required 3 upper level humanities courses. the other classes i took that my adn friends didn't were nursing related, such as statistics, research, community health, management, etc...
it bothers me when people refer to the degree i earned through hard work "fluff" and "of no value." especially if they have not experienced that education themselves.

i agree. non-nursing courses are not necessarily fluff. to add to that, in my bsn program i took the "hard" science for majors courses. not "chemistry for nurses" but che 101-102 and two semesters of organic chemistry. i took calc-based statistics along with 2 sociology, ethics, and psychology courses. this is not fluff. organic chem ripped me a new one, but i made it through. am i better off with it? absolutely. i can read med labels, and know what the chemical configuration means, know what pharmacists are saying to me over the phone. the other courses are of huge benefit as a nurse because i can converse and develop a therapeutic relationship with my patients, regardless of how much time i spend with them. education is never wasted effort. it widens the knowledge base of any person.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Jul 31, 2005

I
It bothers me when people refer to the degree I earned through hard work "fluff" and "of no value." Especially if they have not experienced that education themselves.

It bothers me as well.

Often these are the same people who scream "how dare the ANA think of me as not as good a nurse as a BSN....." and in order to build themselves up, they have to tear down the education you got, resorting to the same generalizations and tactics they are fighting against. :chair:

jmgrn65, RN · Jul 31, 2005

A BSN takes 4 years of undergraduate course work. Typically, an ADN takes 2 years of pre-requisites and 2 years of nursing course work. That is where I came up with the same amount of time.
My statement about ADNs having more ADNs having more clinical experience before entering the workforce could be dead wrong. I live in Oregon, and will be attending a BSN program this Fall. From what I can see, the ADN programs here have more clinical hours than the BSN programs.

ADN is a 2year program, sometimes it takes people 3 years to complete but it is 2years, bsn is 4year and sometimes it takes 5y.

jmgrn65, RN · Jul 31, 2005

who said it's capped? adn is an appropriate education for entry level, that's all. making the bsn a requirement is just throwing a fluff barrier in the way. what makes nursing pay reasonably well is the market force of supply/demand. those who seek additional skills/certs can earn more, because those skills/certs have a direct bearing on the job. what would you rather have working when someone codes.... a bsn or someone who had acls certification?
and i'd have to say that 50 cents an hour for a bsn doing the same job as an adn is quite generous. it's not like bsn's know a better way to take a blood pressure. the classes a bsn takes don't have a bearing on the reality of bedside nursing. what does a class on community nursing have to do with being a bedside nurse? or nursing for the family? and these classes are filled with much inane fluff.
if someone is willing to work prn agressivley, they can make 100k in nursing. and it's not incredibly hard work. i don't see a problem with compensation in this market, just wide open opportunity.

Where do you work? To say that it isn't incredibly hard work, then why on some days am I and my co-workers worn out by 12n? I have been an RN for 13 years and I would never have said that it isn't hard work.

CrazyPremed, MSN, RN, NP · Jul 31, 2005

I think that the number of ASN programs is diminishing. I think that over time (within the next 20 years anyway) that the ASN/ADN option will become much like the diploma option which is to say rare.

I think that it depends on the state that a person is in. Where I am, there is a strong CC RN program, and many private schools are creating new programs. As long as there is a shortage of nurses, there will be a market for nursing students. Actually, I'm surprised that hospitals aren't trying to bring back the diploma programs! :rotfl:

Anyway, 20 years from now I see a rise in the CNA and patient care tech communities. I see more certifications possible for them, and a little more autonomy. Anytime there is a shortage of health care workers, new positions seem to pop up. Can't get enough primary care docs? use PA's and NP's. Can't get enough anesthesiologists? - get CRNA's. Can't get enough RN's, use CNA's and PCT's. Can't get enough surgeons? use Surg Tech's and scrub RN's. This RN shortage may actually take responsibilites and power away from the RN. I think that it has driven many people (like myself) away from the BSN route and more towards the ADN route (especially when the majority of the pay is the same).

CrazyPremed

jmgrn65, RN · Jul 31, 2005

In my state our adn programs have up to 4years waiting list so I don't see them diminishing here, I think that it depends on what area of the country you're in.

RainDreamer, BSN, RN · Aug 1, 2005

I'm not speaking for the poster you asked the question of, but from my experience on this board, many people think non-nursing courses, non-hands on courses are "fluff". Such as the liberal arts courses, etc. Also, as was mentioned by another person in this thread , "the classes a bsn takes don't have a bearing on the reality of bedside nursing. what does a class on community nursing have to do with being a bedside nurse? or nursing for the family? and these classes are filled with much inane fluff".
I'm in a RN to BSN program and the college has some co-req courses I'm going to take next semester. They are a Christian school, so I've got to take religion courses like "Lessons in Living", "World Religions", as well as western civilization. While they may be fluff, I'm looking forward to them. Other courses such as a detailed course in Nursing of the Aged, Community Health, Pharmacology, pathophysiology, etc. are going to help me tremendously in my bedside practice and I don't consider these courses to be fluff, although someonelse might.

Thanks for explaining that, Tweety. So a well-rounded education is considered "fluff" to some people.

RainDreamer, BSN, RN · Aug 1, 2005

I have a feeling that intern would have behaved the same way whether she was in an ASN program or a BSN program.

Exactly. I knew a few students in my program that were like that, not many but there were a couple. One of them actually did her preceptorship on the night shift with me (she was in L&D, I was in NICU) and I heard her preceptor complaining about her a lot. I thought it was terrible that she acted that way. But that was HER .... and I'm sure there are people like that in any program, whether it be BSN or ADN.

ptadvocate81 · Aug 1, 2005

I know ADNs and BSNs both sit for the same NCLEX exam, both have approximately four years of education, and at best have negligible differences (over time) in their nursing skills. BSNs take courses than broaden their overall knowledge; however, ADNs have more clinical experience prior to entering the workforce. Should there be a differential for BSNs, or should the reward for obtaining a BSN lie in the ability to advance one's career?
I'm not trying to start an ADN vs BSN bashing, I'm just curious to see what you all think.

Same NCLEX, same job description, same pay. More $$$ for all! )

smk1, LPN · Aug 2, 2005

ADN is a 2year program, sometimes it takes people 3 years to complete but it is 2years, bsn is 4year and sometimes it takes 5y.

ADN is 3 yrs out where i am because you need 1 full year of prereqs and then the 2 yr RN program. You can't take them as coreqs. they bill it as a 2 yr program, but that is only taking into account the actual nursing program, not the prereqs. It is not allowed or possible to take the a&p, chemistry, psych etc... and cna training along with the RN program.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Aug 2, 2005

ADN is 3 yrs out where i am because you need 1 full year of prereqs and then the 2 yr RN program. You can't take them as coreqs. they bill it as a 2 yr program, but that is only taking into account the actual nursing program, not the prereqs. It is not allowed or possible to take the a&p, chemistry, psych etc... and cna training along with the RN program.

It could be done where I went to school, but most of us at least got A&P and Micro out of the way. Personally, I got it all out of the way and took nursing only. It took me five years of part time work to get my ADN. :)

We did have one woman get in at the last minute the fall right after high school and make it through in two years. Don't know how she did it. Her first quarter she took Pysch. English, A&P I and Nursing and every quarter was like that Nursing with three other classes.