Should BSNs be paid more?

RainDreamer, BSN, RN · Jul 31, 2005

I don't know why people have a problem with a BSN differential or a differential for certifications. Yes, we all do the same job but, I am doing the same job as a nurse with 20 years experience yet she does get paid more because of her experience. I don't see why education should be treated differently.

Excellent point!!!!

RainDreamer, BSN, RN · Jul 31, 2005

Pardon my rant, but it just bugs me so to see some of these nursing students who have so little hands-on experience.
We had a clinical nurse intern the other day who happened to spend a day in our nursery! First, she was grossed out by a wet diaper and then the RN doing nursery that day asked her to take a rectal temp. She didn't know how to do that! This is a soon-to-be SENIOR BSN student!

Pardon my rant now ..... but I HATE stereotypes. We could sit here all day and say "The other day a BSN nurse did this ...." or "the other day an ADN nurse did that ....." No need to group everyone together, not all programs are the same. But even if this student didn't know how to do a rectal temp on a baby, so what? Isn't that the whole point of clinicals ...... to learn! I hope some of the other nurses there were more understanding and had more patience than you.

fergus51 · Jul 31, 2005

.You might have the "same" job as a more experienced RN, and have the same patients, but I promise you, you are not doing the same job that a nurse with 20 years' experience is doing her job-20 years experience makes a huge difference in the skill level and the way that the job is done. That nurse is able to process information, "read" the patient, communicate with the physicians, and facilitate care on a completely different level than a newer nurse. I work with critical care nurses with 10-25 years' experience, and they can read a patient like a street sign, they understand the disease process on a higher level due to the experience, and the docs trust them if they say "something's just not right here because (fill in the blank)"-they do not do the "same" job that I do-think about it-that's why that nurse would be paid more (ADN or BSN)

For some that's true, for others I assure you it isn't. I work with some nurses who are very experienced (and thus highly paid) who won't even agree to be trained to take the intensive babies! That means a lot of us nurses with fewer years of experience have to take the sicker patients because the more experienced nurse doesn't want to be trained to go to deliveries, look after babies with chest tubes, pressors, oscillators, jets, won't take babies for surgery or accept immediate post ops, etc. Nurses who just join our unit could have 20 years of experience in a completely different area but they will still be rewarded for that experience even though it has little application to our specialty. I actually oriented a nurse to our unit who had been in public health and OR about 15 years before coming to us. You can't tell me she's a better NICU nurse than someone whose experience is in the NICU for 5 years.

Regardless of their actual skills and abilities, they get paid more simply for existing as a nurse for more years. Why shouldn't education be similarly rewarded?

RainDreamer, BSN, RN · Jul 31, 2005

I think there OUGHT be an incentive, of sorts, to advance one's education. WHY THE HECK NOT? What is so wrong with paying people with more education better? Why is nursing so "hung up" here????

I'm wondering the exact same thing. Can someone answer this ..... why they are so hell bent on not wanting differentials for their fellow co-workers?

People just keep saying "we all do the same job, we should get paid the same". Well say something different and tell us WHY you're so against fellow nurses getting paid more.

I just recently graduated with my BSN and now I'm looking at different hospitals to work .... but whether they pay more for a BSN or not has no bearing on whether I'd want to work for them or not. I really don't care one way or the other if I get paid more for having a BSN. But if they do offer a differential I'm not going to say "no thanks!" lol, because I'm sure that extra money would come in handy to help pay off these 5 years worth of student loans I have.

pricklypear · Jul 31, 2005

Pardon my rant now ..... but I HATE stereotypes. We could sit here all day and say "The other day a BSN nurse did this ...." or "the other day an ADN nurse did that ....." No need to group everyone together, not all programs are the same. But even if this student didn't know how to do a rectal temp on a baby, so what? Isn't that the whole point of clinicals ...... to learn! I hope some of the other nurses there were more understanding and had more patience than you.

Exactomundo. It's not the program that makes a good or bad nurse, it's the PERSON. I didn't just go to school, lay back, and let the information waft over me - hoping to absorb some. Unfortunately, some people do just that. Or maybe someone doesn't have a large reserve of common sense, but they can study information and pass a test with flying colors.

Anyway RainDreamer - I love your avatar (I'm an Arizona Native) Where are you going to school? I was a Sun Devil.

RainDreamer, BSN, RN · Jul 31, 2005

Anyway RainDreamer - I love your avatar (I'm an Arizona Native) Where are you going to school? I was a Sun Devil.

A fellow zoni! :) I've lived in Tempe all my life, went to school in TX though and had been there the last 5 years .... but I'm back in AZ now, I missed it terribly. I'm just miles from ASU, great great school!

TypicalFish · Jul 31, 2005

For some that's true, for others I assure you it isn't. I work with some nurses who are very experienced (and thus highly paid) who won't even agree to be trained to take the intensive babies! That means a lot of us nurses with fewer years of experience have to take the sicker patients because the more experienced nurse doesn't want to be trained to go to deliveries, look after babies with chest tubes, pressors, oscillators, jets, won't take babies for surgery or accept immediate post ops, etc. Nurses who just join our unit could have 20 years of experience in a completely different area but they will still be rewarded for that experience even though it has little application to our specialty. I actually oriented a nurse to our unit who had been in public health and OR about 15 years before coming to us. You can't tell me she's a better NICU nurse than someone whose experience is in the NICU for 5 years.
Regardless of their actual skills and abilities, they get paid more simply for existing as a nurse for more years. Why shouldn't education be similarly rewarded?

I was speaking of the superior nurses with experience; I was, of course, not referring to the less-than-excellent nurses who will be mediocre regardless of years and years of experience. And, of course, I was not referring to a nurse trained to one specialty coming to a new specialty-that nurse would be considered "unexperienced" to her new field. When you speak of experience you generally mean experience in the specialty which one works. Unless you want to become pedantic and split hairs, that is.

The public health nurse you posted about wouldn't be considered experienced in the NICU. With your own argument, you really prove the opposite: why should people be paid more for education if they actually do a substandard job, or have less experience than a ADN-educated nurse-Your own post shows that you question the abilities and fairness r/t more experienced nurses. So would you feel the same way if that public health nurse came into your unit, you had to train her, she had less skills and experience, but (theoretcially) she gets paid more than you due to her educational status-

I am not for or against, but this entire thread proves why it should be carefully considered before implementing an education based pay scale. It likely would encourage more people to continue education (but what if they just can't afford it/family/time issues?); but until then-based on the scenario given by Fergus-how much discord would it cause for a very experienced, very good ADN nurse to discover that the new grad BSN with no experience gets paid equal to or more than her/him? Then you would have to go to a completely different plan that bases pay on experience plus education. But then again, we have the whole "My specialty is tougher than your specialty" thing that you find at every hospital. I can not think of a better way to cause more discord, in-fighting and dividing of the profession than to start such a program. It would be nice if all nurses just stuck up for each other regardless of education or experience.

BETSRN · Jul 31, 2005

Pardon my rant now ..... but I HATE stereotypes. We could sit here all day and say "The other day a BSN nurse did this ...." or "the other day an ADN nurse did that ....." No need to group everyone together, not all programs are the same. But even if this student didn't know how to do a rectal temp on a baby, so what? Isn't that the whole point of clinicals ...... to learn! I hope some of the other nurses there were more understanding and had more patience than you.

Actually, it was the nurse working with this clinical nurse intern who told me this story. I only introduced myself, told her "welcome" and she scowled at me. I just went the other way and on to my assignment. As a preceptor, I can just imagine the fun her preceptor will have at her first job. We see a lot of students through our department and most are terrific. I just thought this was a real example of poorly prepared for someone who is supposed to be almost finished with a BSN nursing program.

Personally, I think the ideal way to prepare a BSN grad would be to ahve these types of programs be 5 years in length. I do think that there is just too much"fluff" in some of these programs.

fergus51 · Jul 31, 2005

I was speaking of the superior nurses with experience; I was, of course, not referring to the less-than-excellent nurses who will be mediocre regardless of years and years of experience. And, of course, I was not referring to a nurse trained to one specialty coming to a new specialty-that nurse would be considered "unexperienced" to her new field. When you speak of experience you generally mean experience in the specialty which one works. Unless you want to become pedantic and split hairs, that is.
The public health nurse you posted about wouldn't be considered experienced in the NICU. With your own argument, you really prove the opposite: why should people be paid more for education if they actually do a substandard job, or have less experience than a ADN-educated nurse-Your own post shows that you question the abilities and fairness r/t more experienced nurses. So would you feel the same way if that public health nurse came into your unit, you had to train her, she had less skills and experience, but (theoretcially) she gets paid more than you due to her educational status-
I am not for or against, but this entire thread proves why it should be carefully considered before implementing an education based pay scale. It likely would encourage more people to continue education (but what if they just can't afford it/family/time issues?); but until then-based on the scenario given by Fergus-how much discord would it cause for a very experienced, very good ADN nurse to discover that the new grad BSN with no experience gets paid equal to or more than her/him? Then you would have to go to a completely different plan that bases pay on experience plus education. But then again, we have the whole "My specialty is tougher than your specialty" thing that you find at every hospital. I can not think of a better way to cause more discord, in-fighting and dividing of the profession than to start such a program. It would be nice if all nurses just stuck up for each other regardless of education or experience.

Actually in my hospital, it doesn't matter if you are a stellar nurse with experience or a bad nurse with experience. Experience is rewarded with increased pay, period. It also doesn't matter what specialty you have experience in. My friend the public health/OR nurse started at the same step on the payscale as a nurse whose experience was all in the NICU. They don't start back at the new grad level, so I'm not splitting hairs I'm telling you how it is in real life on my unit. She didn't theoretically make more than me while I was orienting her, she made more than me. I don't have a problem with this at all btw. I wouldn't expect a nurse like her to even apply to change specialties if it meant starting at the new grad wage. I was just using that to prove that experience in and of itself doesn't necessarily make a better nurse. That's the argument people always use to explain why education shouldn't be rewarded financially (because education doesn't mean someone is a better nurse). So if we are going to reward experience regardless of whether a nurse is better for it or not, I see no reason why education should be treated differently.

BTW, I don't see a BSN new grad making more than an experienced RN regardless of degree. I think it should be a simple differential just like certification in one's specialty (50 cents an hour where I work I believe). I really can't understand why anyone would have a problem with that.

pricklypear · Jul 31, 2005

Personally, I think the ideal way to prepare a BSN grad would be to ahve these types of programs be 5 years in length. I do think that there is just too much"fluff" in some of these programs.

I attended a BSN program, and I don't remember too much of the "fluff" that you speak of. What do you mean by "fluff"? Do you have personal experience with BSN programs? I have a feeling that intern would have behaved the same way whether she was in an ASN program or a BSN program.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Jul 31, 2005

I am not for or against, but this entire thread proves why it should be carefully considered before implementing an education based pay scale. It likely would encourage more people to continue education (but what if they just can't afford it/family/time issues?); but until then-based on the scenario given by Fergus-how much discord would it cause for a very experienced, very good ADN nurse to discover that the new grad BSN with no experience gets paid equal to or more than her/him? Then you would have to go to a completely different plan that bases pay on experience plus education. But then again, we have the whole "My specialty is tougher than your specialty" thing that you find at every hospital. I can not think of a better way to cause more discord, in-fighting and dividing of the profession than to start such a program. It would be nice if all nurses just stuck up for each other regardless of education or experience.

I'm not advocating an education-based pay system myself. There is no way an experienced ADN RN should be payed less than the new grad BSN.

I'm only advocating a differential for the BSN. With all things being equal, say two RN with the same number of years experience, certifications, etc. the BSN nurse would get a differential for having more education. Or two new grad nurses starting out, the BSN nurse would start out with a differential because of more education.

I'm not advocating doing away with an experienced-based forumula.

Experienced based formulas don't always work well either. Two nurses, in nursing 20 years, one with 20 years in pysch nursing, the other 20 years in critical care. Both get a job in critical care, but get punched into a formula rewarding only their years of experience. That's the way my hospital did it prior to going to pay for skills.

In the above scenerio the one with ACLS, a critical care course, certification, art. line insertion, and BSN would get the higher pay.....in addition to credit for years experience. (Different units requiring differing skills, so the nurse with 20 years ICU experience would benefit most likely.)

But I can see your scenerio. Suppose an ADN nurse works for a year. Then a brand new BSN grad comes along and with the diff. makes as much, or more than the experienced one. That would not feel good.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Jul 31, 2005

I attended a BSN program, and I don't remember too much of the "fluff" that you speak of. What do you mean by "fluff"?

I'm not speaking for the poster you asked the question of, but from my experience on this board, many people think non-nursing courses, non-hands on courses are "fluff". Such as the liberal arts courses, etc. Also, as was mentioned by another person in this thread , "the classes a bsn takes don't have a bearing on the reality of bedside nursing. what does a class on community nursing have to do with being a bedside nurse? or nursing for the family? and these classes are filled with much inane fluff".

I'm in a RN to BSN program and the college has some co-req courses I'm going to take next semester. They are a Christian school, so I've got to take religion courses like "Lessons in Living", "World Religions", as well as western civilization. While they may be fluff, I'm looking forward to them. Other courses such as a detailed course in Nursing of the Aged, Community Health, Pharmacology, pathophysiology, etc. are going to help me tremendously in my bedside practice and I don't consider these courses to be fluff, although someonelse might.