Shooting at nurse's college in Tuscon, AZ??

[indynurse]

I am watching FOXNews and they just reported they have received a "bulletin" about a shooting at a nursing college in Tuscon. They will break in more more news as they get it. Two women have been shot...No word on condition...I hope they are not seriously wounded.

My prayers are with them.

[Youda]

Originally posted by Susy K

Youda, will all due respect, I can understand bullying and NOT agree with it. To state that I don't understand a topic because I don't agree with it is really not justifiable.

Also, the point to a debate or discussion is not to "win" but to hear other's views, and challenge their beliefs. I am secure in my beliefs so I will be vocal about them. No one wants to have the board to themselves to talk "unopposed" as you suggest. It seems that when we oppose YOU is where the conflict arises. Life is boring when we all agree.

No, it doesn't have anything to do with bowing out because someone disagrees with me. It has to do with my viewpoint not being valued or taking seriously.

Let's look at a few of the more sarcastic comments to my posts:

" would never have fathomed however, that WE, as nurses, as educators, as females, would be sympathizing with him. "

"I thought I was a bleeding heart..... listen"

I am talking about a sociological behavior. A verifiable, statistical, observable syndrome with specific signs and symptoms. I offer that as an explanation, to gain understanding, to provide solutions, as a prevention to other terrible incidents like this.

Granted, the above comments are far from active "flaming" but it still holds an element of disrespect and nullification of my opinions. Some say, stay, we value your opinion. And, for those, I am grateful that you found value in my viewpoint. But, I will not stay on a topic when there is a subtle ridicule of my thoughts. If you think that is leaving because someone doesn't agree with me, then you are sadly mistaken. I don't leave because of disagreement, I leave because I don't care for the tactics being used to silence: ridicule, sarcasm, minimizing, and failure to see any value in my viewpoints.

Granted, I am hyper-sensitive to this right now. I am coming off a severe episode of bullying. I am not recovered. I have PTSD as a result of it. I have contemplated suicide because of it. I am not the personality type to turn my anger on others, like Flores, instead I turn it on myself. I know all about how a target is driven, bullies, harrass, invalidated, labelled, and punished to the point that the bully destroys you or you destroy yourself.

Yeah. I know all about this. Far too intimately, in fact. So, excuse me if I take exception to sarcasm and invalidating me anywhere in my life. If you think I don't have the guts to stick it out SIMPLY because someone doesn't agree with me, honey, you are sadly wrong. I've put up with slams far better than you could ever dream up, and I survived them (just barely). No, dear, the problem here is that I just REFUSE to allow it anymore.

If you wanted HONEST EXCHANGE of ideas here, you'd try to ask questions or see another viewpoint. But, this silly idea, this ludicrous idea that some of you have that "unbalanced" explains this entire shooting is just plain, sadly, ignorant. Your world is composed of labels and pigeon-holes. God help you if you ever see that there is rarely one answer, right or wrong, to anything.

Now that I've really spouted off, I really am leaving this thread.

[Q.]

Youda, my comment that you pulled out was not sarcastic - those in fact, were my feelings, my utter disbelief at what I was hearing. I am fairly confident that the victim's families would probably mirror my reaction. That is not to say they are ignorant on social problems. It simply means they don't agree with your perspective. You are not the only one who has strong feelings on this subject. I am sorry you feel the need to bow out of the discussion, and I'm sorry I don't buy the "bullying" social theory as causation for murder; that does not mean I don't take your thoughts seriously. It simply means I don't agree with this "bullying" as applied to this particular case. You're not the only one whose been bullied. TRUST me on this. I'm sorry that you find my disagreement with you as being sarcastic and undermining and apparently disrespectful. But Youda, if you look at it, it's simply disagreement. I don't agree with you. It's really that simple. I don't think you're a bad person, I don't think YOU are ignorant. There's no hidden agenda to silence you. I just don't agree with you. Nothin' more to it than that.

Helen, you raised some points about the college's responsibility, and why they didn't act. It seems to me that the students and instructors, were in fact the ones who were bullied here, and rather than becoming homicidal/suicidal, they simply became paralyzed.

Again, I firmly believe that sometimes, just SOMETIMES, people are just plain bad, and just sometimes, the only thing to blame is the person who committed the act. Not a college, not a community, not a social theory; but the individual. Enough excuses. Let's be accountable for our actions.

[Q.]

Youda, my comment that you pulled out was not sarcastic - those in fact, were my feelings, my utter disbelief at what I was hearing. I am fairly confident that the victim's families would probably mirror my reaction. That is not to say they are ignorant on social problems. It simply means they don't agree with your perspective. You are not the only one who has strong feelings on this subject. I am sorry you feel the need to bow out of the discussion, and I'm sorry I don't buy the "bullying" social theory as causation for murder; that does not mean I don't take your thoughts seriously. It simply means I don't agree with this "bullying" as applied to this particular case. You're not the only one whose been bullied. TRUST me on this. I'm sorry that you find my disagreement with you as being sarcastic and undermining and apparently disrespectful. But Youda, if you look at it, it's simply disagreement. I don't agree with you. It's really that simple. I don't think you're a bad person, I don't think YOU are ignorant. There's no hidden agenda to silence you. I just don't agree with you. Nothin' more to it than that.

Helen, you raised some points about the college's responsibility, and why they didn't act. It seems to me that the students and instructors, were in fact the ones who were bullied here, and rather than becoming homicidal/suicidal, they simply became paralyzed.

Again, I firmly believe that sometimes, just SOMETIMES, people are just plain bad, and just sometimes, the only thing to blame is the person who committed the act. Not a college, not a community, not a social theory; but the individual. Enough excuses. Let's be accountable for our actions.

[Q.]

Originally posted by abrenrn

This is a quote from one of the stories about Robert Flores I believe the one on the students reactions, etc. The paragraph is a straight copy and paste from the original text:

Schenkel had been talking to a group of students in the lounge about Flores and whether he should be asked to leave the program. She didn't know he was nearby listening.

The article goes on to say that he told her to watch her back.

I wonder why she did not worry about her job instead. I believe there are significant issues of student confidentiallity that were violated in this case: open discussion with other students about whether or not a student, not thought to present, should be asked to leave; a lounge area where anyone, including the student discussed, could overhear what was said.

Schenkel was a fellow nursing student, discussing a classmate with other classmates. She was not an instructor.

[Mkue]

Originally posted by Youda

Now that I've really spouted off, I really am leaving this thread.

I do enjoy your posts Youda, think I'll move on too .. sigh.

Have a good night!

Marie:)

[rncountry]

Abrenrn, she was a classmate, not an instuctor. However I would say that the discussing of other's actions is not a stretch either. Smacks of the breakroom where one nurse rants against another for being a poor nurse, for whatever reason. There truly are nurses who do a piss poor job, I work with some. However issues I have do not belong in the breakroom, they belong with the people who need to know and have the ability to do something about it. I believe that if the student had pressing concerns she should have gone to the program director. She states she felt threatened, I would have too, given the same circumstances. What I don't understand however, is why valid concerns were not taken to the appropriate people. Didn't get anything from the program director, then keep going.

It is all so sad. I see pieces of this, that simply minic what I see at work, what I experienced in school, what I have experienced at work.

Youda, while you may be touchy right now, part of the healing process comes when you are able to relate what happened to you, And to be able to tell others they have overstepped boundries. If you choose to leave the thread it is of course, your choice. But may I suggest that instead feelings get worked out? This is an emotional issue for many, there are plenty of others who are reading but not posting. Likely there are others who feel exactly how you feel. I went through what I know recognize as bullying when I worked in the Neuro ICU several years ago. It took me a good long time to recognize that I was not some screwball nurse with nary a critical thinking skill in my head. And it also took a long time for me to be able to listen to any type of sarcasm or such did not totally set me off. I think for anyone who has not experienced how very badly this can effect someone it is nearly impossible for that person to understand those feelings. I have been fired for attempting to ensure appropriate reporting was done when two LTC residents were obviously physically abused. You know that, but that was several years after I worked in the Neuro unit. By that time I was no longer willing to shut my mouth and keep my head down. But I would tell anyone who cares to listen that the constant bullying, intimidation, and general pure nastiness I encountered in the Neuro unit was as difficult if not more so than the firing and subsequent lawsuit I filed, because this was done by people I had expected to help me learn, and to support me when needed. I had no such expectation from corporate suits who were attempting to cover up abuse of a 105 year old woman and her 95 year old roommate. It can be a very slow healing process to come out of a time in your life when everything you do is questioned, nastiness and sarcasm directed towards you become nothing but normal. I have found however, that this board, as rancous as it can become, has been the biggest support I have ever had as a nurse. When I finally was able to tell other nurses that I had been fired, under what circumstances, and that my employers then went after my license, it was as if the weight of the world had come off my shoulders. Then miracle upon miracle I was not condemned. Instead I was given support and caring that I had never experienced in the real world of nursing. Let us become your comfort, your friends. Let us tell you that you did nothing wrong. Let us help you heal, I guarantee it is possible. I won't tell you it will be easy. At every turn you will expect for someone to tell you that your feelings are not valid, that you shouldon't have done this or shouldn't have done that. But in truth what will happen is that the vast majority of the nurses on this board will understand, BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN THERE THEMSELVES. They may not be willing to share what happened to them, at least not yet, but they will recognize the same things in their own career. Why do I say that? Because most of us have. Once upon a time I called Horizonal violence, the dragon in the basement of nursing. The one we all try to keep at bay, least it come for us. The one we don't want to acknowledge is there, while the smell from that dragon hangs over the profession like a pig farm.

It is a natural response to lash out right now, but all that accomplishes is angry feelings that get shoved inside again. And I think that has happened enough to you. I was going to pm you and let you know how very much I understand, but then I decided that whatever I had to say could be said publicly. I recall a time after I was fired that I felt so utterly lost that I could barely stand myself let alone anyone else. I felt ready to give up period. I recall my sister saying to me," Of course you will make it through this, you are the John Wayne of the family." What she didn't understand right then was that it was a role I didn't want anymore. I didn't feel like I could fight for anyone let alone myself. The thing that made me feel different was this very board. To be able to go here and read the stories of other nurses who had gone through the same thing. To know that there was nothing wrong with me or my skills or the real need to be able to take care of myself before I considered taking care of other people. Understand I care what happens to you. I care whether you decide to stay in this profession or not. And I care enough that it doesn't matter to me if you throw in the towel and walk away, I will still always consider you a nurse and so will many others. I still have times when I think I don't want to fight anymore, that I am tired of fighting for my profession to be what I know it can be. The days I drive home and wonder what the hell I am still doing in this career field. But I still seem somehow to come back to it because I always have this need to be that advocate, not only for my patients, but myself and my collegues.

I hope that you at least look in on this thread and read this. I know you are hurting. Let us support you.

[abrenrn]

I stand corrected. She was a student having a discussion about a fellow student she did not want to have hear the discussion and, unfortunately did. She did not seem to think there was anything wrong with her behavior.

She had gone to many faculty members with her concerns. None seemed to do anything.

I find that interesting. As will the lawyers.

[abrenrn]

I too will leave with Youda. It is my experience that this is the point where people will really have fun slamming what I say.

Why is it that others wait until someone says they are leaving a thread to rebut things the poster has said much earlier?

Just another thing for you to think about. If you read past the first sentence in your rush to respond. I also find it interesting when I see what people read AND what they don't read - or choose to ignore because it might interfere with their argument.

And yes, I could read that letter and empathize. Deeply. In fact, much more than I empathize with the comments coming from the school.

Did any student ever treat him as if he was a human being, a fellow student? It doesn't sound like it.

[mark_LD_RN]

Originally posted by OBNURSEHEATHER

Um, as far as I'm concerned he lost his right to have his preferences catered to.

I'm sure those instructors "preferred" not to be murdered.

Heather

DAMN RIGHT YOU ARE AGAIN!:)

IT JUST SICKENS ME TO SEE PEOPLE SYMPATHIZING WITH A OUT RIGHT MURDERER. HOW LOW CAN WE GO:(

[mark_LD_RN]

Originally posted by nightngale1998

I guess we "prefer" the stick your head in the sand treatment of the issues at hand.... Oh sure.. take away human rights now...

:eek:

Once again... the oppourtunity to create change.. to look at all the issues of what should be addressed is pushed down by the minority who have the luxury of focusing on one issue...

Cold Killer Bob... is that all he is to you? Then I guess that is all you can see....

I agree we need change,just not the change you are thinking of. get your head out the sand and see he is a murderer. not your friendly nusing student bob!

the change we need is to make sure that people like him get the death penalty.if they don't take the easy way out and kill their self.

[Stargazer]

...aaannd on THAT note, I think the level of discourse here has been irretrievably lowered.

Thanks for your comments and insights, everyone. Much food for thought here. Even if some people can't quite see it.

the change we need is to make sure he gets the death penalty

Um, you did hear he's already dead, right?

[abrenrn]

Sometimes I like to lie, say I'm not coming back.

Hey, Mark - sometimes I post regular messages too quickly, sometimes I post apologies too quickly. Retracted, completely.

Yes, I'd like to see you figure out a way to give him the death penalty - have you read much of what's really out there? Ah, I see you read the comment after and editted yours to make it seem as if you knew he had killed himself. Edit times are posted, comment, "if hadn't killed self already" added after he was corrected.

There is a concept called integrity. It is highly valued in academia, in health care settings. In this case, integrity would have been shown if the correction was made in a following post. It is the opposite of integrity to edit something and hope nobody picks up on the time of the edit. When I see this behavior in one enviornment, I suspect I may find it in more formal settings.

I added this with an edit. There were no futher comments when I chose to do so. Had there been a comment, I would have added a new post. Pretty simple really.

Nice to know I sicken certain people. Perhaps they could use a little IBS.

But that was such polite posting, wasn't it? My comments sickening other people? More than happy to oblige.

I'm sure there are people crazy enough to want to be nurses but a bit too smart for the teachers on hand. Students who have learned to keep their heads down, shut up, put up say - hey, why can't everyone else do what I did? Perhaps those of us who choose not to have brown noses don't belong in this profession after all.

That's what I think I'm hearing on this board. Lick away, y'all.

A flaming departure for me. Perhaps not.