Shooting at nurse's college in Tuscon, AZ??

[indynurse]

I am watching FOXNews and they just reported they have received a "bulletin" about a shooting at a nursing college in Tuscon. They will break in more more news as they get it. Two women have been shot...No word on condition...I hope they are not seriously wounded.

My prayers are with them.

[Mkue]

Originally posted by rncountry

I wonder how many people are out there that could have become good nurses in a time we desperately need them, but walked away from the profession because of the shit they had to endure just to get through school? It is a question that begs an answer.

Great post.. this especially caught my eye.

Good question.

I've seen many excellent students walk away quietly due to the crap they refuse to put up with. Programs are becoming harder to get into, more courses are being added to the curriculum and some courses are dropped (after you have taken them). Grading scales are raised to the point where an "A" will soon be 100% or nothing.

Nurses who graduated from my program years ago say their standards were much lower and yet they passed the dreaded NCLEX. What used to be a 2 year (4 semester) associate degree is turning into a 3-4 year associate degree. The programs are longer which just delays the torture. Lowering the standard is not the answer by any means, there has to be a better way to reach their goal.

Well that's my .02, I wish I knew why there is so much sh-- to put up with. There is actually more than any human can bear sometimes and it's not worth losing self-esteem and dignity, etc.

Once again, it is a very good question.

:)

[nurs4kids]

I think some are missing the big picture here..

remember back in elementary school?? remember the bullies?? you rarely saw two bullies fighting..they were both cowards, therefore had to side together to succeed at their bullying.

Flores was a bully. MANY nursing instructor's are bullies. They couldn't be on the same side because the instructor's had what Flores wanted...power. No, the instructor's did NOT by any means deserve to die. Flores is NOT by any means a martyr. However, he brought to light a big problem.

I attended college on and off for 6yrs before entering nursing. NEVER once was i treated as an idiot until I entered nursing school. Yes, I am STILL bitter about what I had to put up with in order to graduate. Six years later, I still can not see the benefit in treating students in the way many are treated in nursing school. Did I ever consider killing an instructor? Not seriously, but I'm sure at some points I hated some enough that had I not been stable, I may have entertained the thought. I did not have the responsibilities Flores had...I didn't walk in his shoes. But, at the same time, I notice he had weapons worth over $2K with him that day, yet in his letter he's concerned about money. You've got to wonder how many other unnecessary things he spent money on...and continued to blame other's for his shortcomings.

I don't know..the more I read, the more I think..

I only feel sympathy for Flores in that he was in obvious pain...

I feel deep sympathy for the instructor's and their families..

those women did what we do every day..

they got up, kissed the kids and hubby "bye"...

probably told them they'd see them later...

and set out to put in another day at work...

they did not deserve to die..they weren't the problem.

They were only tools in the game of nursing...tools that perpetuate the attitudes of the nursing gods..

We can argue all day over who was wrong...who was right..

Flores is the ultimate wrongdoer....

nothing justifies murder (unless you "f" with my kids )

BUT..we can not let this pass by saying "he was an isolated nutcase"..

there IS an atmosphere of superiority among nursing instructors..

There ARE many cases of unnecessary stress placed on students..

and if we ignore this guy..there is bound to be another one follow his lead.

However, I do have to add one more thing. I feel I graduated from the best nursing school in my area. I despise these instructor's that bring students onto my unit and the instructor and student's are not prepared. I have little or no respect for the schools these people are associated with...I shudder if my boss hires a nurse from this school because I know this nurse will have to be taught nursing in orientation..as if she/he has never opened a nursing book.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say..I still think the hardest schools turn out the best nurses...

should we lessen the stress so that the weaker can cope??

or do we allow nature to prevail...asssuring survival for only the stronger??

It all depends on what we want for our "profession".

[nurs4kids]

I think some are missing the big picture here..

remember back in elementary school?? remember the bullies?? you rarely saw two bullies fighting..they were both cowards, therefore had to side together to succeed at their bullying.

Flores was a bully. MANY nursing instructor's are bullies. They couldn't be on the same side because the instructor's had what Flores wanted...power. No, the instructor's did NOT by any means deserve to die. Flores is NOT by any means a martyr. However, he brought to light a big problem.

I attended college on and off for 6yrs before entering nursing. NEVER once was i treated as an idiot until I entered nursing school. Yes, I am STILL bitter about what I had to put up with in order to graduate. Six years later, I still can not see the benefit in treating students in the way many are treated in nursing school. Did I ever consider killing an instructor? Not seriously, but I'm sure at some points I hated some enough that had I not been stable, I may have entertained the thought. I did not have the responsibilities Flores had...I didn't walk in his shoes. But, at the same time, I notice he had weapons worth over $2K with him that day, yet in his letter he's concerned about money. You've got to wonder how many other unnecessary things he spent money on...and continued to blame other's for his shortcomings.

I don't know..the more I read, the more I think..

I only feel sympathy for Flores in that he was in obvious pain...

I feel deep sympathy for the instructor's and their families..

those women did what we do every day..

they got up, kissed the kids and hubby "bye"...

probably told them they'd see them later...

and set out to put in another day at work...

they did not deserve to die..they weren't the problem.

They were only tools in the game of nursing...tools that perpetuate the attitudes of the nursing gods..

We can argue all day over who was wrong...who was right..

Flores is the ultimate wrongdoer....

nothing justifies murder (unless you "f" with my kids )

BUT..we can not let this pass by saying "he was an isolated nutcase"..

there IS an atmosphere of superiority among nursing instructors..

There ARE many cases of unnecessary stress placed on students..

and if we ignore this guy..there is bound to be another one follow his lead.

However, I do have to add one more thing. I feel I graduated from the best nursing school in my area. I despise these instructor's that bring students onto my unit and the instructor and student's are not prepared. I have little or no respect for the schools these people are associated with...I shudder if my boss hires a nurse from this school because I know this nurse will have to be taught nursing in orientation..as if she/he has never opened a nursing book.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say..I still think the hardest schools turn out the best nurses...

should we lessen the stress so that the weaker can cope??

or do we allow nature to prevail...asssuring survival for only the stronger??

It all depends on what we want for our "profession".

[Mkue]

Originally posted by nurs4kids

there IS an atmosphere of superiority among nursing instructors..

There ARE many cases of unnecessary stress placed on students..

and if we ignore this guy..there is bound to be another one follow his lead.

This is so true nurs4kids... very unnecessary stress.. well said.

[Mkue]

Originally posted by nurs4kids

there IS an atmosphere of superiority among nursing instructors..

There ARE many cases of unnecessary stress placed on students..

and if we ignore this guy..there is bound to be another one follow his lead.

This is so true nurs4kids... very unnecessary stress.. well said.

[abrenrn]

I agree that real educational standards should never be lowered. In my undergraduate program I took a physiology class that was a killer, had to work my ass off to do well - but I knew the info would come in handy. But, too many students were flunking this class, they stopped giving it to nursing students and (upper division school) decided to make A&P a prereq instead. Note some of the failed students had passed A&P before coming to this program.

This class was hard in that it was a rigourous class. The same standards had to be met by all students to pass, get As, etc. (though there was a curve).

I got through that fine. I was almost flunked by a clinical instructor who dislike me because I had disagreed with her in class a semester earlier. She set up standards for me that differed from other students. I ended up keeping my head down, mouth shut, with the added burden of horrendous abdominal cramping (never before experienced). I did not complain when I was criticised where another student was praised. A few of the students seemed to notice this, but generally stayed away.

That was only one clinical, thank god. The others were reasonable. But it came very close to pushing me out of nursing school.

So, my question, what are the standards we want for nursing students? Shut up, keep head down, just try to endure or academic rigor, good clinical skills?

[abrenrn]

I agree that real educational standards should never be lowered. In my undergraduate program I took a physiology class that was a killer, had to work my ass off to do well - but I knew the info would come in handy. But, too many students were flunking this class, they stopped giving it to nursing students and (upper division school) decided to make A&P a prereq instead. Note some of the failed students had passed A&P before coming to this program.

This class was hard in that it was a rigourous class. The same standards had to be met by all students to pass, get As, etc. (though there was a curve).

I got through that fine. I was almost flunked by a clinical instructor who dislike me because I had disagreed with her in class a semester earlier. She set up standards for me that differed from other students. I ended up keeping my head down, mouth shut, with the added burden of horrendous abdominal cramping (never before experienced). I did not complain when I was criticised where another student was praised. A few of the students seemed to notice this, but generally stayed away.

That was only one clinical, thank god. The others were reasonable. But it came very close to pushing me out of nursing school.

So, my question, what are the standards we want for nursing students? Shut up, keep head down, just try to endure or academic rigor, good clinical skills?

[abrenrn]

I felt I graduated from a very good nursing school - the physiology class alone made my masters physiology class a walk in the park. I do not feel I benefited in anyway from that clinical experience - other than perhaps as a model of how nurses are expected to act when they go out to work.

[abrenrn]

I felt I graduated from a very good nursing school - the physiology class alone made my masters physiology class a walk in the park. I do not feel I benefited in anyway from that clinical experience - other than perhaps as a model of how nurses are expected to act when they go out to work.

[abrenrn]

This is a quote from one of the stories about Robert Flores I believe the one on the students reactions, etc. The paragraph is a straight copy and paste from the original text:

Schenkel had been talking to a group of students in the lounge about Flores and whether he should be asked to leave the program. She didn't know he was nearby listening.

The article goes on to say that he told her to watch her back.

I wonder why she did not worry about her job instead. I believe there are significant issues of student confidentiallity that were violated in this case: open discussion with other students about whether or not a student, not thought to present, should be asked to leave; a lounge area where anyone, including the student discussed, could overhear what was said.

I had read these articles earlier (I do try to read all available informations) and kept my thoughts to myself out of conideration for those who are hurting. Nevertheless, I think any relevant information should be taken into account in this debate.

[abrenrn]

This is a quote from one of the stories about Robert Flores I believe the one on the students reactions, etc. The paragraph is a straight copy and paste from the original text:

Schenkel had been talking to a group of students in the lounge about Flores and whether he should be asked to leave the program. She didn't know he was nearby listening.

The article goes on to say that he told her to watch her back.

I wonder why she did not worry about her job instead. I believe there are significant issues of student confidentiallity that were violated in this case: open discussion with other students about whether or not a student, not thought to present, should be asked to leave; a lounge area where anyone, including the student discussed, could overhear what was said.

I had read these articles earlier (I do try to read all available informations) and kept my thoughts to myself out of conideration for those who are hurting. Nevertheless, I think any relevant information should be taken into account in this debate.

[Youda]

Originally posted by Susy K

Youda, will all due respect, I can understand bullying and NOT agree with it. To state that I don't understand a topic because I don't agree with it is really not justifiable.

Also, the point to a debate or discussion is not to "win" but to hear other's views, and challenge their beliefs. I am secure in my beliefs so I will be vocal about them. No one wants to have the board to themselves to talk "unopposed" as you suggest. It seems that when we oppose YOU is where the conflict arises. Life is boring when we all agree.

No, it doesn't have anything to do with bowing out because someone disagrees with me. It has to do with my viewpoint not being valued or taking seriously.

Let's look at a few of the more sarcastic comments to my posts:

" would never have fathomed however, that WE, as nurses, as educators, as females, would be sympathizing with him. "

"I thought I was a bleeding heart..... listen"

I am talking about a sociological behavior. A verifiable, statistical, observable syndrome with specific signs and symptoms. I offer that as an explanation, to gain understanding, to provide solutions, as a prevention to other terrible incidents like this.

Granted, the above comments are far from active "flaming" but it still holds an element of disrespect and nullification of my opinions. Some say, stay, we value your opinion. And, for those, I am grateful that you found value in my viewpoint. But, I will not stay on a topic when there is a subtle ridicule of my thoughts. If you think that is leaving because someone doesn't agree with me, then you are sadly mistaken. I don't leave because of disagreement, I leave because I don't care for the tactics being used to silence: ridicule, sarcasm, minimizing, and failure to see any value in my viewpoints.

Granted, I am hyper-sensitive to this right now. I am coming off a severe episode of bullying. I am not recovered. I have PTSD as a result of it. I have contemplated suicide because of it. I am not the personality type to turn my anger on others, like Flores, instead I turn it on myself. I know all about how a target is driven, bullies, harrass, invalidated, labelled, and punished to the point that the bully destroys you or you destroy yourself.

Yeah. I know all about this. Far too intimately, in fact. So, excuse me if I take exception to sarcasm and invalidating me anywhere in my life. If you think I don't have the guts to stick it out SIMPLY because someone doesn't agree with me, honey, you are sadly wrong. I've put up with slams far better than you could ever dream up, and I survived them (just barely). No, dear, the problem here is that I just REFUSE to allow it anymore.

If you wanted HONEST EXCHANGE of ideas here, you'd try to ask questions or see another viewpoint. But, this silly idea, this ludicrous idea that some of you have that "unbalanced" explains this entire shooting is just plain, sadly, ignorant. Your world is composed of labels and pigeon-holes. God help you if you ever see that there is rarely one answer, right or wrong, to anything.

Now that I've really spouted off, I really am leaving this thread.