SEC assessment ? A JOKE !!

mercedes emode · Oct 20, 2010

thanks alot janfrn.:coollook:from mercedes.

RNpersistent · Dec 1, 2010

i would like to give my opinion on this subject, as some of the topics/points are of very significant relevance to me. Judging from my own personal experience, I would have to say that both sides are to blame, IENs are also responsible for not fully knowing what they're getting into, and the BC ministry of health/CRNBC/SEC/Kwantlen university for the instigation of a process that almost no IEN could ever get through without having any scratches/bruises. Simply put, we could have had researched first, and we could have also been warned in advance. There is a grim situation ahead for IENs here in B.C. because they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I guess lessons have been learned in the part of IENs, lesson being that sometimes, if a country/province does not want/need you, there are ways to keep you out or better yet, there are obstacles that you have to go through only to realize that there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

I know I'm not on this stage yet, but please try to enlighten me on this. How can an IEN acquire 250 hours of supervised practice to obtain an interim permit/registration IF there is no one, not one employer willing to even give that IEN a chance of getting hired? The employers will tell you that you need interim registration to be hired, yet to acquire interim registration you need to be hired. Clearly this is a convoluted limbo. All that is left is a stressed out IEN, wishfully thinking WHEN will he even get a chance of even having a shot at a profession he's been falsely given hope at being in a country who acquired him on a federal skilled worker nurse category on the first place. Maybe it's just me, but clearly and I know that there are definitely hundreds, maybe even thousands of IENs like me here in B.C., all lined up, waiting for their turn to nowhere. Clearly user AVKON was right, we were shown a cliff on which to jump on, on one hand we were given a blindfold, and on our ankles were tied up a ball and chain. Maybe I'm just one frustrated guy venting out the frustrations of IENs who were clearly prejudiced on experience, maybe it's a sad trend that would continue unless someone sees all the broken spirits of hopeful applicants. Maybe we can just look and say, "oh pity those poor guys, they never even had a chance." but maybe, just maybe, that's just how it is for us.

Fiona59 · Dec 1, 2010

My parents migrated to Canada in the 1960s. They were promised there would be no obstacles to finding work in their trades. There were promotions all over the UK to "come to Canada and work in your trade". My Dad turned down a great job in order to come here because there were opportunities for his family that just didn't exist in our homeland at the time.

Well, nope. My Dad was a journeyman in his trade and couldn't find a job. It was all based on who you knew and if you were in the trades union (you couldn't join the union without a job). My Mum's nursing qualification wasn't recognized, no SEC, no anything but go back to school if you want to work from the hospitals she applied to.

This isn't new to migrants. Every generation has faced it. My Dad eventually found work in his trade but my mother never returned to nursing.

It's hard. I remember my Dad (who never let anything defeat him) actually plan on returning to the UK rather than face unemployment and financial ruin here. He met a man, who knew a man, who hired him in his trade and he stayed there until the end of his working life.

No generation of migrants ever has it easy.

RNpersistent · Dec 1, 2010

That, I find true. Some migrants, some people, based on their experiences have their own story to tell. some have had rough times, others did not.

My father went through the same ordeal. He had high hopes of coming to the U.S. But when he got there he got a job babysitting. Then cleaning the floors in a butcher shop. Sure, your father had some ordeals too, I'm sure. But he told me this, he went through that and told me that he never wanted me to have to go through to what he has gone through.

Some people would say, "Oh, I've been through what you've been, and trust me, soon everything will turn out to be great. But what if it doesn't?" What then? Have we risked our possessions, our families, our time, for nothing? This I tell you, if there is even a GLIMMER OF HOPE for IENs to become nurses here we'd all be rushing. But with all the broadcasts, the statistics, even the people working from the inside telling us that there's NOTHING here for IENs, I guess we don't need to be clinging on to false hopes now do we?

It's true, as what you've said Fiona59 - No generation of migrants ever has it easy. But it doesn't mean it has to stay that way. That's why we study. That's why some people work hard to better themselves. It should not be a term where people say, "Hey, guess what, you'll be a nurse here - but there's a catch - you have to bear 4-5 years of prison-like ordeal, not to mention huge amounts of debts to pay, hours to work, stress and all that. So, are you up for it?" That's why we all work hard for who and what we are, doesn't mean that just because our ancestors had to go through it doesn't mean we have to go through the same, or worse.

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Dec 1, 2010

...please try to enlighten me on this. How can an IEN acquire 250 hours of supervised practice to obtain an interim permit/registration IF there is no one, not one employer willing to even give that IEN a chance of getting hired? The employers will tell you that you need interim registration to be hired, yet to acquire interim registration you need to be hired. Clearly this is a convoluted limbo.

I'd be delighted to enlighten you on this. They don't. The 250 hours of supervised practice comes AFTER the granting of provisional registration. From the CRNBC:

"Step 6: Issuing Provisional Registration (CRNBC does this)

* When CRNBC issues you Provisional Registration, CRNBC will send you the "Canadian

Employment Reference for International Applicant for Nurse Registration" (Form 40). You

should give this form to your B.C. nursing employer to complete once you have the met

the required hours of work (minimum of 250 hours).

* Ask your employer to send the completed form directly to CRNBC.

* You may work on this requirement before and/or after you write your Canadian Registered

Nurse Examination.

* You must meet the Canadian employment requirement before you are eligible for full registration.

* Provisional Registration can be verified online once issued."

The difficulty is in finding an employer more so than obtaining provisional registration. The sad truth is that there are few vacancies for nurses in BC right now.

All that is left is a stressed out IEN, wishfully thinking WHEN will he even get a chance of even having a shot at a profession he's been falsely given hope at being in a country who acquired him on a federal skilled worker nurse category on the first place.

There is nothing in the federal skilled worker legislation that guarantees a person employment. It's an immigration issue that is completely separate from employment. It comes back to doing your research and knowing what your'e getting into. Look before you leap, to use your analogy.

...if there is even a GLIMMER OF HOPE for IENs to become nurses here we'd all be rushing. But with all the broadcasts, the statistics, even the people working from the inside telling us that there's NOTHING here for IENs, I guess we don't need to be clinging on to false hopes now do we?

No, you don't. The sheer volume of IEN applicants applying for the small number of positions available and the initial celebrations of success that came from those IENs who were successful has created this problem in large part. Now the easy route to employment in Canada has closed and somehow that's Canada's fault?

It's true, as what you've said Fiona59 - No generation of migrants ever has it easy. But it doesn't mean it has to stay that way. That's why we study. That's why some people work hard to better themselves. It should not be a term where people say, "Hey, guess what, you'll be a nurse here - but there's a catch - you have to bear 4-5 years of prison-like ordeal, not to mention huge amounts of debts to pay, hours to work, stress and all that. So, are you up for it?" That's why we all work hard for who and what we are, doesn't mean that just because our ancestors had to go through it doesn't mean we have to go through the same, or worse.

Unfortunately, there MUST be standards. And again, it comes back to understanding what you're getting into. Since every person's situation is different, even with two people from the very dame class, there can't be a cookie-cutter approach to any of this. Make your choices carefully with all the information you can find. But don't blame somebody else if your reach exceeds your grasp.

RN_Canada · Dec 2, 2010

I guess lessons have been learned in the part of IENs, lesson being that sometimes, if a country/province does not want/need you, there are ways to keep you out or better yet, there are obstacles that you have to go through only to realize that there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

They are not obstacles they are standards. Canada has a high expectation of public accountability for public service. In the Canadian health care system this is even higher because of the risk to the public that is involved.

Many many IEN's have been successful in completing the SEC and gaining employment in Canada as registered nurses and we are glad they did.

It is impossible to be a patient in a hospital in my community and NOT be cared for by an internationally educated nurse AND many of them did a wonderful job of caring for my dad during three recent hospitalizations! (even when he had to have a bed in the "hallway" OMG can we do better than this? - please!)

But I digress.....

Getting back to the issue of IEN's, immigration, skilled workers and all that. Don't forget that immigration and integration into employment can be a lengthy process and during that time the political and economic landscape can change - a lot!

This has happened recently in the last few years and even though Canada as a nation has fared well through all of this, it has not escaped the influence of the many global factors affecting the economy.

Three years ago I had students taking calls for job interviews while they were in class, but today many are not getting those calls until 6 months after graduation. But they are still getting those calls.

There are still jobs available but they are fewer, and it takes longer to get one. This is a temporary situation and it will turn around - it always does.

In the million or so years I have been in nursing there has ALWAYS been a nursing shortage:) in Canada ( the other nursing dinosaurs will confirm that too!)

IENs are also responsible for not fully knowing what they're getting into, and the BC ministry of health/CRNBC/SEC/Kwantlen university for the instigation of a process that almost no IEN could ever get through without having any scratches/bruises.

Believe me I feel your pain but once again I will re-interate that the SEC is a process that was requested by the employers NOT by the government.

WHY?

Because they were hiring IEN's and then finding that they were not able to be successful in the workplace and when that happens on a large scale the results are devastating for the IEN, their family, and the patients and their families, and the employer and their staff and on it goes.

Remediating one IEN involves a lengthy process that includes the employer, the union, the regulatory college or association of nursing, the IEN and a number of other parties who all have to work together to try and identify what is wrong and how it can be made right again. Why? because all parties want to retain this nurse in the workforce.

However, this was proving to be too labor intensive and expensive on an individual basis so the decision was made to create some sort of screening procedure at the outset that would prevent this disaster from occurring thus improving the probability that IEN's who entered the system would be successful in their employment.

and THAT is how the SEC was born. It was not set up as an obstacle for you. It was set up as a measure of public accountability to the Canadian society that only nurses who can handle the job would be looking after them when they are sick and vulnerable.

You might want to get a job, but Canadians want you to be successful in your employment. It is just too expensive emotionally and financially if that does not happen.

I know that you think that a nurse is a nurse is a nurse.

But I can tell you that nursing in Canada is probably much different from what you are used to in any other country, including the USA.

RNpersistent · Dec 2, 2010

Originally posted by janfrn:

"Unfortunately, there MUST be standards. And again, it comes back to understanding what you're getting into. Since every person's situation is different, even with two people from the very same class, there can't be a cookie-cutter approach to any of this. Make your choices carefully with all the information you can find. But don't blame somebody else if your reach exceeds your grasp."

believe me when I tell you that as nurses, we all try to know what we're getting into, that's why we assess. We formulate a diagnosis and we plan on it. I'm not trying to blame canada alone, or the CRNBC alone, or the employers alone for not giving IENs a chance. But please try to put yourself in the other shoe, is it OUR FAULT ALONE? Surely a system has been put in place, and I have no problem with that, because I believe in that system, because I know it will protect me and my patients. But what if you were trying to integrate yourself into the profession like the hundreds of us IENs, who knows that the STANDARDS exist so high that it was somehow constructed to put everyone at the far back end of the line? How would you feel? Would you have the life force in you motivated to continue a lengthy process of waiting in a line that does not even have the guarantee of a career?

Clearly we, the IENs have created this situation, maybe for the guys who believe in those standards we all fall flat on our face. But does it mean that we alone made our own bed therefore we must lie on it? Do you clearly believe that IENs are the ONLY ones RESPONSIBLE? What about the ministry of health? The CRNBC? The government? The economy? Do you absolutely firmly believe that these institutions have no part with what happened to IENs here? They have clearly said that the health care sector is facing a deficit, and with that someone has to feel the squeeze. Guess who's the easy target? Are we absolutely 100% sure that the mere overflow of IENs are the main culprit behind this? No part of trying to make money? No motive of trying to bait people? I guess I may be too strong on my opinions, because of what I'm going through, but you can't tell me that this is all my fault just because I came here at my own risk. Because if we now knew that this is what we'll be putting ourselves into we would not have made the decision to come into a pitfall.

I know we IENs are not perfect, as clearly shown by your past experiences from us. But no nurse is perfect, no system is perfect. That is why people change the rules, the standards, to try and perfect the system. But let me ask you this, what happens to us now? Again I'm not JUST blaming Canada. But don't you think everyone has something to do with this situation? I know my comments may be influenced by personal experiences, but believe me with every changes made in a system there will be pros, and cons, and there will be victims. And it is not just the victims fault.

ceridwyn · Dec 2, 2010

Victim? It is your country that owes you a job and a living, not any others. It was your decision to go to Canada not Canada's.

They have laws that say they have skilled migration so? does not mean you have a job,.....though if a read right from Jan rn you do the 250 hours after getting the provisional license. Better look back on your application and see why you have not been given provisional.

Political changes happen and in free political countries as they do not feel the need to ask anyone else's opinion that is not a citizen the regulations change regularly as needed.

You class yourself as a 'victim' well it is not by Canada's rules and regulations, this is about where you are coming from.

I differ you opinion on nursing, we reflect on our education, we reflect on past experience, we reflect on our clients past experience and knowledge and then we care for them. Assessment is so regimental. We care, doctors diagnose or NP's (though we have already everything in place} just need the signature, then we facilitate health needs along with the client.

Just chill a bit and smell the roses.

Fiona59 · Dec 2, 2010

Originally posted by janfrn:
Clearly we, the IENs have created this situation, maybe for the guys who believe in those standards we all fall flat on our face. But does it mean that we alone made our own bed therefore we must lie on it? Do you clearly believe that IENs are the ONLY ones RESPONSIBLE? What about the ministry of health? The CRNBC? The government? The economy? Do you absolutely firmly believe that these institutions have no part with what happened to IENs here? They have clearly said that the health care sector is facing a deficit, and with that someone has to feel the squeeze. Guess who's the easy target? Are we absolutely 100% sure that the mere overflow of IENs are the main culprit behind this? No part of trying to make money? No motive of trying to bait people? I guess I may be too strong on my opinions, because of what I'm going through, but you can't tell me that this is all my fault just because I came here at my own risk. Because if we now knew that this is what we'll be putting ourselves into we would not have made the decision to come into a pitfall.
I know we IENs are not perfect, as clearly shown by your past experiences from us. But no nurse is perfect, no system is perfect. That is why people change the rules, the standards, to try and perfect the system. But let me ask you this, what happens to us now? Again I'm not JUST blaming Canada. But don't you think everyone has something to do with this situation? I know my comments may be influenced by personal experiences, but believe me with every changes made in a system there will be pros, and cons, and there will be victims. And it is not just the victims fault.

All I've got to say is, in my province the bulk of the last big hiring of RNs from overseas, failed to meet the standards of locally trained and qualified LPNs. These were the very same nurses who were all over this forum three years ago proclaiming that their skills were second to none, that there degrees were the best around, that they were the most "caring nurses in the world". It was a short hard slap in the face to them and their Canadian co-workers who found out their skills were substandard.

We've had nurses who entered the country as care providers or nannies be upset that they even have had to write the exams qualifying them to work here. Never mind the fact that they haven't worked as nurses for over four years.

No one is owed employment due to their education overseas. I work with LPNs who have very different degrees in their homelands and when they found out their degrees were not accepted here, they retrained as LPNs. Fair?, not really, but education, the legal system, etc are very different here from Columbia, Poland, the Ukraine. These people swallowed their pride and started afresh, which unfortunately migrants often have to do. My mother never worked in her field again because my family couldn't afford to pay for her re-education to Canadian standards. The last 30 years have seen many former doctors from the Balkans, mainland China, etc wind up working in other jobs because either their education didn't meet national standards or they couldn't find residencies if their education made the grade.

On this board we've had very few of the original posters report back on their new lives in Canada. The ones who have succeeded were the ones who came with open minds and were willing to learn. Jan, myself and others could tell more than a few horror stories about several of these nurses and how they cared for and interacted with the Canadian patients who ultimately are the taxpayers who paid for their migration and educational upgrading..

Silverdragon102, BSN · Dec 3, 2010

I will put my hands up to being successful through being willing to learn. I had a few issues with my transcripts due to training x amount of years ago but with perseverance and discussion with relevant college of RN's I got everything sorted and sat CRNE and passed first time. Been working just over 4 months. What I have gained with applying for jobs that Canada is very much who you know in regards to getting an interview and showing a willing to learn things that are different. I am certainly finding things done differently. Don't get me wrong diseases are the same however treatments may vary plus Dr shortage where I live means things are prioritised on how things are treated by the doctor.

pilgrim · Dec 4, 2010

Originally posted by janfrn:
"Unfortunately, there MUST be standards. And again, it comes back to understanding what you're getting into. Since every person's situation is different, even with two people from the very same class, there can't be a cookie-cutter approach to any of this. Make your choices carefully with all the information you can find. But don't blame somebody else if your reach exceeds your grasp."
believe me when I tell you that as nurses, we all try to know what we're getting into, that's why we assess. We formulate a diagnosis and we plan on it. I'm not trying to blame canada alone, or the CRNBC alone, or the employers alone for not giving IENs a chance. But please try to put yourself in the other shoe, is it OUR FAULT ALONE? Surely a system has been put in place, and I have no problem with that, because I believe in that system, because I know it will protect me and my patients. But what if you were trying to integrate yourself into the profession like the hundreds of us IENs, who knows that the STANDARDS exist so high that it was somehow constructed to put everyone at the far back end of the line? How would you feel? Would you have the life force in you motivated to continue a lengthy process of waiting in a line that does not even have the guarantee of a career?
Clearly we, the IENs have created this situation, maybe for the guys who believe in those standards we all fall flat on our face. But does it mean that we alone made our own bed therefore we must lie on it? Do you clearly believe that IENs are the ONLY ones RESPONSIBLE? What about the ministry of health? The CRNBC? The government? The economy? Do you absolutely firmly believe that these institutions have no part with what happened to IENs here? They have clearly said that the health care sector is facing a deficit, and with that someone has to feel the squeeze. Guess who's the easy target? Are we absolutely 100% sure that the mere overflow of IENs are the main culprit behind this? No part of trying to make money? No motive of trying to bait people? I guess I may be too strong on my opinions, because of what I'm going through, but you can't tell me that this is all my fault just because I came here at my own risk. Because if we now knew that this is what we'll be putting ourselves into we would not have made the decision to come into a pitfall.
I know we IENs are not perfect, as clearly shown by your past experiences from us. But no nurse is perfect, no system is perfect. That is why people change the rules, the standards, to try and perfect the system. But let me ask you this, what happens to us now? Again I'm not JUST blaming Canada. But don't you think everyone has something to do with this situation? I know my comments may be influenced by personal experiences, but believe me with every changes made in a system there will be pros, and cons, and there will be victims. And it is not just the victims fault.

I see where your frustration is coming from, but please don't let it get the better of you. Is relocating to another province an option? Manitoba seems to be still hiring.

You sound to me like a young IEN with a lot of promise. You just came at a time when the job picture has grown really bad. Hang in there and keep your eyes and ears open for opportunities outside BC.

I read somewhere that the hiring pattern for nurses in Canada is cyclical. That if the cycle were a "U," it's now at the bottom with an upswing starting to happen. Use this time to get yourself ready for that next wave of hiring frenzy. Check out colleges in other provinces, and choose the one that will work best with the credentials that you have at present.

Good luck!

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Dec 4, 2010

wastedyearsofprime28, you make it sound as if the standards that have been set apply only to IENs. Well, let me clear that up for you. Those standards that you struggle with so mightily are the very same stnadards that new graduate nurses from right here in small town Canada are expected to meet. The bar has NOT been set higher for you than it was for me or for any other Canadian-born- and-educated nurse. The Ministry of Health, CRNBC, BCNU, the government... none of these owe you anything except a fair assessment of how you meet or don't meet standards.

Canada cannot continue to absorb countless economic refugees when our own citizens are not able to find work in our chosen fields. Are you familiar with the term "local market opinion (LMO)"? That refers to job vacancies for which there are no suitable Canadian applicants, those jobs that would then be open to IENs. This year alone Alberta's nursing schools turned out more than 700 registered nurses who have been unable to find permanent full time employment. If you do the math, that should tell you that LMOs are not going to be issued in the western provinces until those nurses have work. What is YOUR country doing to help you find work in your field?