Ritttenhouse Trial

[nursej22]

The Rittenhouse trial has begun in Kenosha, Wisconsin. The prosecution is presenting first, but apparently the defense argument will be self-defense. So a 17 year old travels out of state with his rifle to a demonstration because he fears for his life? 

 

[toomuchbaloney]

52 minutes ago, Cclm said:

 

I believe he was trained in gun operations and safety. Not police training but was versed in fire arm safety and operation. He wasn't of age so he is guilty of that! The military trained witnesses were just regular witnesses, not expert testimony correct

Rittenhouse's firearm training is not yet in evidence.  Perhaps the defense will present some courses.  I think that he may have been in some junior police or rotc kind of organization.  We'll have to see how the defense handles that.  It's pretty unsafe weapon management to put yourself into the situation that Rittenhouse put himself into. But there he was discharging his rifle, loaded with full metal rounds, in a chaotic public setting where stray bullets put everyone in danger. The public and the police.    

Correct, they were everyday ex military militia members from the midwest, not experts or professionals...aeb their testimony.  

[Cclm, LPN]

8 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Rittenhouse's firearm training is not yet in evidence.  Perhaps the defense will present some courses.  I think that he may have been in some junior police or rotc kind of organization.  We'll have to see how the defense handles that.  It's pretty unsafe weapon management to put yourself into the situation that Rittenhouse put himself into. But there he was discharging his rifle, loaded with full metal rounds, in a chaotic public setting where stray bullets put everyone in danger. The public and the police.    

Correct, they were everyday ex military militia members from the midwest, not experts or professionals...aeb their testimony.  

This is why I like Canada's gun laws. However I do not think the US should or can change their gun laws. This is probably a subject worth of another thread! I just got home from work. Going to go catch up. Talk to you soon I'm sure. ?

[toomuchbaloney]

1 hour ago, Cclm said:

Yelling in people's faces saying "shoot me N word, shoot me" isn't a behavior that suggests he was a threat? That was their interpretation. It's interesting the empathy for someone yelling the N word repeatedly especially because he was white. A angry white man. 

That's what the eye witnesses said, they didn't perceive him as a risk.  There's no record of Rosenbaum harming or injuring anyone. I didn't find their characterizations of the victim sympathetic.  

 

1 hour ago, Cclm said:

It also known as a deterrent. Hence law enforcement. What's the saying? "A armed society is a polite society "? 

Yes.  I was a member of the NRA for many years in my youth so I'm familiar with that messaging.  However, the reality in this country is very different, wouldn't you say? The data suggests that our armed society is violent and dangerous compared to other countries, wouldn't you agree?

1 hour ago, Cclm said:

I believe he was stopping them from setting more fires and causing more damage. If they don't like getting barked at then they shouldn't damage private property that has nothing to do with police violence. Or commit crimes. 

Those militia were not authorized to guard that private property or any other property on that street.  They were not deputised and tasked with policing that area.  They were breaking curfew laws.  The property owner had not invited them there. 

 

1 hour ago, Cclm said:

I know I stated that. However it still could influence his behavior that night. 

Of course it influenced his behavior, Rosenbaum is not on trial.  He was verbal, aggressive, loud, disruptive, acting out like you might expect someone with mental health issues to act.  Rittenhouse was the one whose behavior and actions resulted in two deaths and a serious injury. Of the involved people, the dead guys didn't hurt anyone...the shooter did.  

It was interesting, in the late testimony to hear why the police, responding to obvious rifle fire, let the kid approaching them with the rifle walk away...they didn't even stop and question him at all.  They needed to go to where the big trucks were going apparently. 

[toomuchbaloney]

I wondered what it must have been like for Rittenhouse to hear the prosecution refer to him as an active shooter and refer to his victim Huber as a hero trying to subdue or minimize the threat from the active shooter.  I rather imagine that Rittenhouse felt like he was a hero for much of that fateful evening. 

[Cclm, LPN]

3 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

That's what the eye witnesses said, they didn't perceive him as a risk.  There's no record of Rosenbaum harming or injuring anyone. I didn't find their characterizations of the victim sympathetic.  

 

Yes.  I was a member of the NRA for many years in my youth so I'm familiar with that messaging.  However, the reality in this country is very different, wouldn't you say? The data suggests that our armed society is violent and dangerous compared to other countries, wouldn't you agree?

Those militia were not authorized to guard that private property or any other property on that street.  They were not deputised and tasked with policing that area.  They were breaking curfew laws.  The property owner had not invited them there. 

 

Of course it influenced his behavior, Rosenbaum is not on trial.  He was verbal, aggressive, loud, disruptive, acting out like you might expect someone with mental health issues to act.  Rittenhouse was the one whose behavior and actions resulted in two deaths and a serious injury. Of the involved people, the dead guys didn't hurt anyone...the shooter did.  

It was interesting, in the late testimony to hear why the police, responding to obvious rifle fire, let the kid approaching them with the rifle walk away...they didn't even stop and question him at all.  They needed to go to where the big trucks were going apparently. 

The police probably just thought he was another rioters mouthing off or wanting to throw something at them. Also it's not everyday someone walks up and says, "hey I shot 3 people". 

[toomuchbaloney]

12 minutes ago, Cclm said:

The police probably just thought he was another rioters mouthing off or wanting to throw something at them. Also it's not everyday someone walks up and says, "hey I shot 3 people". 

The officer testimony indicated that the officers perceived Rittenhouse as a potential threat as he approached their vehicle. The driver unholstered his handgun and his partner at least threatened Rittenhouse with pepper spray when he walked up to the passenger window.  The testimony indicated that Rittenhouse kept advancing, that sometimes his hands were up but other times he held onto his weapon and he wasn't following commands.  They were concerned.  Just not concerned enough to detain and question him for a moment about his unsettling behavior. 

Rittenhouse didn't tell the police about the shootings at that moment although it's easy to suspect that he would have had they not sent him away and had tried to understand why he was approaching them. 

[Cclm, LPN]

17 minutes ago, Cclm said:

The police probably just thought he was another rioters mouthing off or wanting to throw something at them. Also it's not everyday someone walks up and says, "hey I shot 3 people". 

 

3 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

That's what the eye witnesses said, they didn't perceive him as a risk.  There's no record of Rosenbaum harming or injuring anyone. I didn't find their characterizations of the victim sympathetic.  

 

Yes.  I was a member of the NRA for many years in my youth so I'm familiar with that messaging.  However, the reality in this country is very different, wouldn't you say? The data suggests that our armed society is violent and dangerous compared to other countries, wouldn't you agree?

Those militia were not authorized to guard that private property or any other property on that street.  They were not deputised and tasked with policing that area.  They were breaking curfew laws.  The property owner had not invited them there. 

 

3 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Of course it influenced his behavior, Rosenbaum is not on trial.  He was verbal, aggressive, loud, disruptive, acting out like you might expect someone with mental health issues to act.  Rittenhouse was the one whose behavior and actions resulted in two deaths and a serious injury. Of the involved people, the dead guys didn't hurt anyone...the shooter did.  

Exactly. Ryan protected himself so they couldn't hurt him or anyone else for that matter. Except the skate board guy, he did hurt Kyle. And whoever kicked him in the head. 

3 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

It was interesting, in the late testimony to hear why the police, responding to obvious rifle fire, let the kid approaching them with the rifle walk away...they didn't even stop and question him at all.  They needed to go to where the big trucks were going apparently. 

 

[Cclm, LPN]

1 hour ago, toomuchbaloney said:

I wondered what it must have been like for Rittenhouse to hear the prosecution refer to him as an active shooter and refer to his victim Huber as a hero trying to subdue or minimize the threat from the active shooter.  I rather imagine that Rittenhouse felt like he was a hero for much of that fateful evening. 

He probably doesn't care. That is mild compared to what he has been called or accused of in the past year. 

I think he was a little sh*t trying to be a hero that night but I don't think he thought of himself as a hero after taking peoples lives. I mean what's heroic about defending yourself?. Everyone would. 

[toomuchbaloney]

1 hour ago, Cclm said:

Exactly. Ryan protected himself so they couldn't hurt him or anyone else for that matter. Except the skate board guy, he did hurt Kyle. And whoever kicked him in the head. 

Who is Ryan? 

Skateboard guy is Huber, the hero who died trying to disarm the shooter. 

Of all of the injuries related to the shootings that night, Rittenhouse's were the least serious. 

[MunoRN, RN]

Rittenhouse was pretty clearly justified each time he pulled the trigger.  In each case an aggressor was clearly initiating an attack, and in the midst of an aggressive mob that clearly has the potential to be life threatening.

The legal problem for though is going to be that the reason he had to justifiably defend himself was due to recklessness and negligence on his part.  The specific definitions vary by state, but as a direct result of his recklessness and negligence, two people died.  That lack of direct intent to kill people at least spares him from murder and homicide charges that require that intent, but it doesn't spare him from homicide charges where he is responsible for what results from his recklessness.

[toomuchbaloney]

9 minutes ago, MunoRN said:

Rittenhouse was pretty clearly justified each time he pulled the trigger. 

I don't necessarily agree that the evidence so far justifies discharging the weapon even the first time.  Rittenhouse believes that he was justified and that is his defense but... had Rittenhouse simply kept fleeing Rosenbaum, rather than panicking and shooting him, everything would be different. It will be interesting to see if the defense calls witnesses who describe Rosenbaum as threatening that night because so far the prosecution witnesses have described him as lots of things but not an actual threat. 

My guess is that had Kyle Rittenhouse not had that firearm hanging from his chest he wouldn't have been where he was - doing what he was doing.  His bad decisions to make that illegal gun purchase and then to illegally carry that illegally purchased weapon while engaging in public policing with militia members have changed his life.  

If Rittenhouse is found to have killed Huber in self defense, does it set a precedent for how the public should treat active shooters because the shooters will have a right to defend themselves?

 

[Cclm, LPN]

11 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Who is Ryan? 

Skateboard guy is Huber, the hero who died trying to disarm the shooter. 

Of all of the injuries related to the shootings that night, Rittenhouse's were the least serious. 

Yes. His injuries were less serious and he is alive because he defended himself.