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Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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Hello fellow professionals,

May I have your attention please. An allnurses.com user by the name of nursebrandie made a valid point in the emergency nursing subforum that I would like to discuss with all of you. We were discussing the use of paramedics in the ER, and it was mentioned that the two professions were interchangeable. This is alarming to a professional nurse such as myself. We must not give give up our career roles to other specialties. Any of you that do not believe this is an issue, please consider the following:

1. Anesthesia started out being administered by nurses, that's right, nurses...not physicians. Nursing gave this role up to physician anesthesiologists. Yes, we still have the CRNA profession, but now there is a new role out there called the Anesthesiologist Assistant (AA). It is a master's degree program that physicians created to keep the midlevel anesthesia providers under their thumbs. The position pays as well as, if not more than, a nurse anesthetist.

2. Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy started off as subspecialties of nursing. Yes, PT's and OT's were orginally nurses that received specialty training in the activities of PT and OT. But we gave these positions away too and now the PT has become a clinical doctorate degree and the OT has become a master's degree.

3. Midwives originally birthed babies, not physicians. In fact, the first known male physician to witness a live birth dressed up as a woman to see the event, and when it was discovered, he was burned alive at the stake. Yes, we still have nurse midwifery, but it never should have been given to the male physician group. And also look at what CNM's get paid compared to OB/GYN physicians...for pretty much the same job.

4. RN's used to be able to mix drugs in piggybacks for I.V. administration. Now pharmacists have completely taken over that arena too. Why is this important? Well, just this...did you ever need a drug in an emergency situation, like Mannitol, but had to wait for a pharmacist to mix it and you get it back in 30 minutes when you could have mixed it in 5 minutes flat? Look around you...nursing's skill set is being taken away, but our nursing leaders are demanding us to have more education. Why? Nurses aren"t smart enough to use strict aseptic technique to mix drugs in an emergency situation?

5. Why is it that nurses cannot endotracheally intubate except in an ambulance or flight nurse role? Why is it that a paramedic can put in an EJ IV line, central line, or chest tube but nurses cannot except if employed in a flight nurse or ambulance role? Why is it that are profession seems to want us more educated but we have allowed ourselves to become "dumbed down"?

So yes, the idea of paramedics taking over the ER nurse's role is a real threat, and it should not be taken lightly. Paramedics are great to have in the ER...but paramedics are paramedics and nurses are nurses.

Embrace your skill set, and do not allow others to take anything more away from you! You went to school. You learned the skills. You know how to critically think! Nurses are more than just well educated technicians. I am more than a butt wiping, pill pushing, bed making technician. So are all of you.

Keep this in mind as you move through your career. Nurses need to come together, not grow apart if this profession is ever going to be something more.

Mark

Specializes in home & public health, med-surg, hospice.

I don't know if this has already been mentioned or not (8 pgs - I confess to my laziness); however, do you guys realize that almost every other offshoot from nursing (PT, OT, RT, etc.) is able to independently bill for the services they provide, whereas, nursing is still part of the room cost?

I believe Markdanurse's concerns have real merit and deserve reflection.

I don't know if this has already been mentioned or not (8 pgs - I confess to my laziness); however, do you guys realize that almost every other offshoot from nursing (PT, OT, RT, etc.) is able to independently bill for the services they provide, whereas, nursing is still part of the room cost?

I believe Markdanurse's concerns have real merit and deserve reflection.

And PT, OT, Pharmacy, Dieticians, ALL require a graduate level of education, and ALL MAKE ALOT MORE MONEY THAN NURSING. They are leaving us in

their dust. We will continue to be rolled into the room rate, along with the complimentary roll of toilet paper, and box of Kleenex.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.
And PT, OT, Pharmacy, Dieticians, ALL require a graduate level of education, and ALL MAKE ALOT MORE MONEY THAN NURSING. They are leaving us in

their dust. We will continue to be rolled into the room rate, along with the complimentary roll of toilet paper, and box of Kleenex.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

And by members of our own profession, i see....:uhoh3:

Specializes in home & public health, med-surg, hospice.

I'm graduating with BSN in May and one of the two hospitals in our area has a scheduled recruitment diner for us in the next couple of weeks.

After the different speakers have given their presentations and they are open for questions from the audience, I'm going to ask them since they are pursuing magnet status and "prefer" BSN if they are willing to pay a differential for the degree.

Of course, I'll be asking nicely...:wink2: Won't be holding my breath ( :rolleyes: )though!

I'm graduating with BSN in May and one of the two hospitals in our area has a scheduled recruitment diner for us in the next couple of weeks.

After the different speakers have given their presentations and they are open for questions from the audience, I'm going to ask them since they are pursuing magnet status and "prefer" BSN if they are willing to pay a differential for the degree.

Of course, I'll be asking nicely...:wink2: Won't be holding my breath ( :rolleyes: )though!

How about doing something novel? Just say that you will work for them IF they pay a differential for a BSN. Make it clear that there ARE hospitals who pay a diferential for a BSN, however few, and that you will be more likely to work where your education will be financially rewarded.

When PTs, OTs, Pharmacists, increased their entry into practice, they did not just sit and wait for hospitals to increase their pay. It was EXPECTED that a higher level education would be rewarded with an increase in pay. in other words, you have to ask for it, andbe prepared to walk away if it is not forthcoming. Perhaps if more BSNs asked for a higher rate of pay, and walked if it was not offered, their would be a expected igher rate of pay for BSNs. Hospitals will not just offer it, we have to ask for it. Too many nurses are not willing to do this, and of course are not supported by co- workers.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Specializes in Critical Care.
How about doing something novel? Just say that you will work for them IF they pay a differential for a BSN. Make it clear that there ARE hospitals who pay a diferential for a BSN, however few, and that you will be more likely to work where your education will be financially rewarded.

When PTs, OTs, Pharmacists, increased their entry into practice, they did not just sit and wait for hospitals to increase their pay. It was EXPECTED that a higher level education would be rewarded with an increase in pay. in other words, you have to ask for it, andbe prepared to walk away if it is not forthcoming. Perhaps if more BSNs asked for a higher rate of pay, and walked if it was not offered, their would be a expected igher rate of pay for BSNs. Hospitals will not just offer it, we have to ask for it. Too many nurses are not willing to do this, and of course are not supported by co- workers.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

If more BSNs did JUST THAT, then there would be a differential that actually justified the increased education AND more people would pursue that difference, both those already in the field, and those making choices of their education pathways.

In no time at all, the whole BSN vs. ADN debate would be resolved in the marketplace.

Until that time, at issue is NOT the status of my ADN degree, but the non-status of BSN degrees, at least, by comparison.

I got my bach degree after my ADN. It is not a BSN. There was no reason to pursue such a degree. The university ring I wear, in THIS university community, says much more (and provides much more respect) about my education than any initials after the initials after my name. See the doctors in my community are just as proud of the SAME university ring THEY wear. They identify with my 'peer status' by wearing that ring more than they do about initials they don't even see.

You want me to go back and get my BSN. Fair enough. But first, show me a reason why I should. I'll believe the rhetoric about higher pay and respect only when I see it.

~faith,

Timothy.

Specializes in home & public health, med-surg, hospice.
If more BSNs did JUST THAT, then there would be a differential that actually justified the increased education AND more people would pursue that difference, both those already in the field, and those making choices of their education pathways.

You want me to go back and get my BSN. Fair enough. But first, show me a reason why I should. I'll believe the rhetoric about higher pay and respect only when I see it.

~faith,

Timothy.

Hey Timothy,

I was inspired by you to even ask regarding the pay differential (ref. to ADN vs. BSN forum)...:bow:

Believe it or not, we just attended a recruitment luncheon with the other of the 2 hospitals and not a 1 of us asked!

It all goes back to, if we don't advocate for ourselves, how do we effectively advocate for our patients? Unfortunately, this school of thought is not promoted within our higher institutions of learning...:(

It's up to us to ask for/demand the respect we deserve for the additional education and as you have said before, the only true tangible means by doing this is in pay. There shouldn't be any shame it, yet we've been made to feel $$$ is a dirty word...:uhoh21: :stone It's a return in our investment ~ simple economics.

Moreover, we should defend our profession and enhance, illustrate and promote all that we do for and have to offer our clients. I mean hospitals could just as easily pay tons of UAPs and only a token few RNs to "supervise" them all as far as they're concerned, ya know? Or as Linda observed continue to pay our counterparts (birthed originally from nursing itself) more and more $$$ while we get left behind, complaining. :rolleyes:

So much of my BSN program was USELESS information. Can a paramedic, RT, OT, PT, CRNA, NM or OB-GYN say the same? Oh to have spent a year with half clinical half didactic ICU education. Instead, I have a whole lot of USELESS information about OB, community health, mental health, etc.

This is precisely why I'll never work in a hospital again. Many nurses just seem to lack any sense at all. Yep, community health and mental health rank way down on the bottom of the list...

As an ex ARMY medic, paramedic and helicopter flight nurse, I can tell you that technical skills maybe account for 10% of what's useful. Been there, done that...don't need your opinion. Now, get some community health and mental health experience and see how much in demand you are when the electricity goes out and there is no backup generator for days or weeks...like in New Orleans for example.

Without my community health background, last year I'd probably have spent many more hours trying to figure out why over 100 people were puking their guts out all over my area. But, I stayed awake in community health and, along with a CDC physician, quickly figured out what the problem was before the number reached 200.

Sometimes I just wished the moderators would ban me for life.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

Careful what you wish for, rofl, Zen.

Just kidding. I appreciate your insight. Thanks.

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.
This is precisely why I'll never work in a hospital again. Many nurses just seem to lack any sense at all. Yep, community health and mental health rank way down on the bottom of the list...

As an ex ARMY medic, paramedic and helicopter flight nurse, I can tell you that technical skills maybe account for 10% of what's useful. Been there, done that...don't need your opinion. Now, get some community health and mental health experience and see how much in demand you are when the electricity goes out and there is no backup generator for days or weeks...like in New Orleans for example.

Without my community health background, last year I'd probably have spent many more hours trying to figure out why over 100 people were puking their guts out all over my area. But, I stayed awake in community health and, along with a CDC physician, quickly figured out what the problem was before the number reached 200.

Sometimes I just wished the moderators would ban me for life.

Great post. Thank you. Too few nurses appreciate what they learn, or rather, what their schools are trying to teach them. The technical skills are the easy part -- easily learned on the job as you have a need for them. In fact, many technical skills are BEST taught in the course of on-the-job training. The role of a college education is to teach/learn the other things that provide a broader and deeper perspective of the here-and-now details of daily life.

Specializes in ED, Cardiac Medicine, Retail Health.
And PT, OT, Pharmacy, Dieticians, ALL require a graduate level of education, and ALL MAKE ALOT MORE MONEY THAN NURSING. They are leaving us in

their dust. We will continue to be rolled into the room rate, along with the complimentary roll of toilet paper, and box of Kleenex.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

In my area RN's make as much as OT's, and more than Dietician's, and LICSW's (Masters educated). The starting salary for a new grad in Boston is $62,000 per year. I have quite a few friends who are teachers, social workers, and police officers who do not make what a new grad nurse makes. Dental Hygienist, who also have dual professional entry, start at $65,000 per year and seem to coexist just fine. I am all for advanced education and professional respect, but are we as nurses really that bad off? Would more education equate to more respect? From what I have read on this website, MD's dont respect NP's who are highly educated, CRNA's are at times not well received by anesthesioloigist, and to many lay persons a nurse is a nurse weather a Diploma, ADN, BSN, or MSN graduate. Nursing represents the largest faction of health care workers yet it seems wield the least amount of power. It reminds me of old South Africa (for lack of a better analogy) where the few ruled the many for years because the many were slow to unify. Maybe unification should be the primary focus for strengthening nursing instead of in fighting and arguing over an issue (education) that may yield little returns and can be fixed internally.. is there not strenght in numbers? Is the sky indeed falling on the nursing profession? Some whow I dont thinks so, but only time will tell I guess........Just my .02 cents

Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.

Maybe unification should be the primary focus for strengthining nursing instead of in fighting and arguing over an issue (education) that may yield little returns and can be fixed internally.. is there not strenght in numbers?

:yeahthat: !!!!

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