NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

[Brian]

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

[Q.]

It isn't elitism for AD and diploma RN's to say "don't devalue me...I've been a practicing RN for years and worked hard for that credential". That's just plain old self respect.

It's all a matter of perspective, I suppose. Just as that is what ADN/diploma nurses hear in this argument, as a BSN I hear: "I don't need that useless ivory tower degree that amounts to nothing more than alphabet soup; I am above that and I am far more superior in skill than you'll EVER be simply because I happened to enter the field before you. In other words: You'll NEVER catch up."

[jkaee]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh a voice of reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one here disparages higher education, no one! Thank you for noticing this!

But getting it accomplished without a lot of barriers, be they time, money, distance, or convenience, NEEDS to be done IF we are going to get the "other 60%" to buy into this. Why can't so many see this?

People say "who cares about so and and so in Podunk, or whether she can access BSN education or not?" I say you have to, if you want to press forward with this. The USA is much more dense, population-wise, than Canada is, and our education systems are very different. Even our rural areas net many potential students who can't travel 2 hours to go to school. Comparing Canada to the USA in this way be a bad move unless we adapt to our differences, not automatically adopt their methods. We do differ a bit demographically and in education systems, it would appear.

In order to make all BSN a reality, we HAVE GOT TO ADDRESS AND REMOVE BARRIERS TO MAKING IT HAPPEN. And that would include those for "Mary in Podunk, Oklahoma", who cannot afford the time and money to drive 150 miles to university to go to school! Helloooooooooooooooooo, the majority of current nurses in practice are over 30. I dont' have to tell you all what that means. Most have families to feed, bills to pay and LIVES TO LIVE outside university education. WE need to stop comparing nursing to OT, PT, MD, and other occupations. Our sheer numbers alone, and our aging demographic, make this a very different situation and arena in which to talk all university education. I say again, we need to do it SMART or not at all.

Thank you, Deb, for taking the time to understand the point I was trying to make!

For all those that pursue higher degrees, great! We do need nurses that are willing and able to get advanced degrees, and take our profession further.

That DOES NOT make you a better nurse, necessarily. Some of the most educated people I have met in my lifetime weren't always the smartest people. And just because you get more education does not mean you will do a better job.....the last job I had the administrator's last job was working as a CNA....then she jumped to a NHA. She was young, inexperienced and quite frankly had no idea how to deal with the issues she was faced with. Yes, she furthered her education and received a higher degree, but that did not make her a better employee or leader for our building.

The problem with the nursing profession, in my opinion, is that there is so much dividing us, and not our level of education.....we don't respect each other, and this is what is keeping us from getting the respect we deserve. Do you know how many times I have heard that LTC nurses "don't know anything", and that we are lousy nurses, and that working LTC is a piece of cake, and why wouldn't I want to do "real nursing"? On the flip side, I had a nursing instructor that thought OR nurses were a waste, since "You could train a monkey to do what they do." (NOT my opinion, just telling you what she told us!) For the most part, many nurses take part in this......acute care bashes LTC, OB nurses have it easy and can't handle real nursing, psych nursing is a joke, and don't even start on Doctor's office nurses......what a waste!

THIS is why we can't get it together and why we aren't treated with respect. We can't respect each other and each other's specalities, so why should others give us respect when all they hear is us bashing each other?

Our degree status has little to nothing to do with the amount of respect we get or deserve. I don't get respect because I work in LTC....I could have my NP in geriatrics.....I would still be looked down upon because I'm not in the fast paced world of acute care, or trauma. I have seen this, many times, from many different types of people. This is what is bringing us down.

I know this went off topic, but this is what I feel is bringing us down as a profession more than the "BSN" debate.

[Erin RN]

Just for the heck of it, I did a salary wizard search on OT and PT salaries in my area..the median salaries are 52k to 54k..I, as an ADN nurse, will well exceed both of those salaries this year and did exceed them last year. I guess I am just not convinced that the BSN will be of benefit to me, personally. Again, I am not against continuing education as I have stated over and over BUT as I move forward the BSN will NOT be the degree that I seek. IMO education is a personal decision as to what will benefit the student most and which way they want their life to take them. I know nurses who have their bachelors in Health promotion, business admin, biology..all of them attained those degrees for a purpose, to move in a specific direction. The BSN by itself will do little for me professionally. I am not saying that further education would not benefit me only that the BSN would not. As I believe I stated previously, I am currently a case manager with a legal nursing business. I have already done the legal nurse certification, I am working on the life care planning certification then on to the case Management certification..eventually since I would like to do all independently, I am thinking more about a degree in marketing or business...That would be a degree that would round me out much better. Community Health nursing and management classes will not as I never plan on doing hands on nursing again in my lifetime..

[teeituptom, BSN, RN]

Divide and conquer is what they are trying to do and sounds like they might succeed

[irishnurse67]

I agree, and frankly I'm disappointed at the overwhelming majority of posters in this thread. RNs are the least educated members of the healthcare team. I think it would do a lot to improve the solidarity and unity of nurses were there an entry level educational requirement such as a BSN (no more ADNs are just as good as BSNs and LPNs are just as good as RNs... ad nauseum).

I'm not going to get into the argument of why a baccalaureate education is preferable to an associate's, that should be clear.

Its a shame that nurses hold education in such low regard. I'm not saying that some ADN or diploma prepared nurses aren't great, competent, professional nurses... they are. However, I think the profession needs to move forward out of a blue collar, task-oriented hourly position into a salaried and professional one.

But then, my views on salary vs hourly wages and unions vs non-unions are for another thread.

Actually, I'm going for my BSN right now and ALL the classes I have to take seem to have NOTHING to do w/bedside nursing, which is the type of nursing I do and all I'm interested in doing. I'll wind up w/more "book smarts" but that's it. I think the real learning occurs for a nurse when he/she is out on the floor.

[tridil2000, MSN, RN]

i think a bsn should be the minimum degree a professional nurse has. i also think the adns should be grandfathered in, but nursing should really all get on the same page with this at some point in the future. it's long overdue.

and i will say it until i die, there is *NO* nursing shortage in america. it is just that NO ONE wants to stay at the bedside, regardless of age or degrees.

[Diana Lynn]

hi

i am from canada and it has done nothing here but cause problems..there is a shortage everywhere..not everyone can afford to go to university to become a nurse so enrollment is down...the diploma schools have all closed, it is really a mess......

[zenman]

Actually, I'm going for my BSN right now and ALL the classes I have to take seem to have NOTHING to do w/bedside nursing, which is the type of nursing I do and all I'm interested in doing. I'll wind up w/more "book smarts" but that's it.

Well, the "book smarts" are what you want because you can transfer that additional knowledge to the bedside...where it will benefit your patients. Why do people seem to have trouble with this concept? They all want more clinical!

And yes, the ideal plan for the shortage of any profession is to cut the amount of education. Let's start with physicians...then petition the school board to cut your kids teacher education in half. Who could we do next?

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

Well, the "book smarts" are what you want because you can transfer that additional knowledge to the bedside...where it will benefit your patients. Why do people seem to have trouble with this concept? They all want more clinical!

And yes, the ideal plan for the shortage of any profession is to cut the amount of education. Let's start with physicians...then petition the school board to cut your kids teacher education in half. Who could we do next?

Those scientists working heroically on cures for cancer, depression, autism, heart disease, diabetes . . . . . . . .

Good point zenman.

steph

[tvccrn, ASN, RN]

I haven't read this entire thread becasue I am SO tired of the ADN vs. BSN debate and who is better than whom. The only thing I have to say about this is if the state of NY requires that the ADN's either get their BSN or be reduced to LPN status then they should make the program available to THOSE WHO ALREADY WORK THERE AS ADN's at no charge whatsoever. These nurses are already working as RN's in the state and if the state changes their mind about the minimum requirements, they should foot the bill for the additional education.

[irishnurse67]

Well, the "book smarts" are what you want because you can transfer that additional knowledge to the bedside...where it will benefit your patients. Why do people seem to have trouble with this concept? They all want more clinical!

And yes, the ideal plan for the shortage of any profession is to cut the amount of education. Let's start with physicians...then petition the school board to cut your kids teacher education in half. Who could we do next?

I didn't know my post would incite such an angry response. All I'm saying is that bedside/clinical experience is the best way to become a better nurse, NOT the only way.

[lindarn]

I didn't know my post would incite such an angry response. All I'm saying is that bedside/clinical experience is the best way to become a better nurse, NOT the only way.

Then why don't other health care professionals look at higher education the way nurses do? Other health care professionals look at education as a step up, not a step down, or a waste of time. They are taught how to translate their higher education into higher pay, and more prestige. They are given the tools to assist them in this goal.

Nurses, on the other hand continue to find/make roadblocks to higher education. When pharmacists went to a doctorate as entry into practice the hospitals here started an in house doctorate program to bring the pharmacists, who has only masters degrees, up to the education level that was now required. And I am sure that there were pharmacists who had family/personal obligations, as nurses do, but managed to find a way to accomplish this education goal. The difference is that it was required of them, with out choice, and the pharmacists, and the pharmacists demanded it of the hospitals.

Nurses need to demand the hospitals have on site RN to BSN classes, parterned with a local college. They did it in California where I used to work, and the classes were held in the hospital. Nurses need to make education important and get on the same page as other health care professionals. We do not need continued split education requirements, and a lower entry into practice with LPN/LVNs. We need a unified body. NURSES are dividing themselves with different entries into practice, and allowing conquering, by the hospitals. I fully support grandfathering in all Diploma nurses, and ADNs

Of course the hospitals take advantage and don't value a BSN. If they did, they would have to pay us more for a BSN, and they know that nurses would demand higher pay for their higher degree. That is why they don't encourage or reward a BSN. A unified body of nursing is the last thing that hospitals want. It is so obvious I do not understand how others cannot see this. It is the same thing with paying higher salary for critical care nurses, and other areas that require a much higher level of practice that med surg. Don't cardiologist charge more than GPs do?

As for clinical experience being more important than a four year college, that is where a one year internship is needed. Nurses continue to validate their self worth and self inportance, by demanding that a new grad be able to hit the ground running the day after they graduate. No other profession turns its new members out without an internship.This allows them to learn the hands on skills that are needed to effectively function in the real world. This would reduce the "sticker shock" effect that hits too many new grads, and causes burn out among new grads. College is where you learn the background knowledge to build on in your nursing practice. It is not the place to learn the finer points, nuts and bolts, and working knowledge, to be able to successfully navigate the profession. An internship with a (willing) preceptor to help them navigate the waters is what is needed. The preceptor should have the ability to teach, want to teach the new grads, and be a mentor that the new grads can rely on. Too many preceptors are placed in a role they don't want, and take it out on the individual they are orienting.

Nurses bear alot of the responsiblity for what nursing has become. Only when nurses turn to the same tools that other health care professionals have used will nursing be cured. As it stands now, nursing is a profession that is dying from the neglect of its members. Nursing is being de skilled, an de professionalized inch by inch. I will again state what should be obvious to everyone involved- hospitals want to get rid of ALL PROFESSIONAL NURSES. Their goals is to make a health care of the minimally educated, unlicensed personnel, for a public that is increasingly older, and sicker, with a mulitude of health care ailments. The bean counters are looking at the big picture, and they are trying to cut their future losses by pressing for the de- skilling of health care. And nurses are allowing it to happen by fighting a unified, educated workforce who, in the 21st Century, and by choice it seems, remain powerless and invisible.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington