NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

[Brian]

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

[SmilingBluEyes]

that makes sense JMP. THAT i can see. It's a viable solution I have yet to see proposed here in the USA. NO they just want to make BSN mandatory w/o any viable ways to help make it happen. This is typical in our country. Also, who pays for this? ADN programs are less costly and you get good bang for your buck here. It will be hard to get people to be able to shell out 1000s more for a BSN in so many cases.

[Erin RN]

For some reason Deb, I never understood this argument.

Again, related to my point about nursing demanding exceptions to every norm:

Do medical schools, schools of social work, dietetics, pharmacy, therapists (pick 'em: respiratory, physical, occupational) and other professions (Law, vet medicine) all worry about if every. single. person. can access the school? And even more to the point: should ANY profession consider this when deciding qualifications, credentials and requirements for practice? I certainly don't think so.

In addition, with the plethora of on-line and evening semi-accelerated programs, I don't feel that accessibility is limited but rather enhanced.

The problem with this argument is that while yes, these other professions are not concened with accessability, nursing educators have to be concerned just due to the fact that the ratio of nurses to ancillary staff and MDs is incredible. When I was at the hospital our social work dept had a dozen employees, the nursing dept had hundreds of staffmembers. If we decrease the accessability then the supply will go down, of course then the demand will go up further which would probably make nursing a more lucrative profession but then you have to ask..who is going to take care of the patients? Will we then be forced to have CNAs and techs expand their roles? Nurses are already burning out in record numbers due to staffing, OT and overwork..do you not think that this would make more people leave and quicker??

[LadyT618, MSN, APRN, NP]

that makes sense JMP. THAT i can see. It's a viable solution I have yet to see proposed here in the USA. NO they just want to make BSN mandatory w/o any viable ways to help make it happen. This is typical in our country. Also, who pays for this? ADN programs are less costly and you get good bang for your buck here. It will be hard to get people to be able to shell out 1000s more for a BSN in so many cases.

I'm with you. There is a problem when BSN programs are not accessible to people who have only ADN programs near them. Maybe soon, they will do away with ADN programs all together (60% of grads out there). After all, according to all these researchers, it's a waste of time. Just go for the BSN, that's what they want anyway.

I look at it this way, it really makes no sense arguing, because if the powers that be want it to happen, it will happen, whether we like it or not. Hey you never know, things might actually work out. Nursing shortage may cease to exist and all nurses will be one!!........

.......I hope I'm alive to see it.

[tntrn, ASN, RN]

During a little lull in the action on our Birth Center unit last night, I mentioned this topic to 3 or 4 of my co-workers. We vary in ages from late-30's to mid-50's and vary in years of experience from 10 to 30. All of us got our nurse's training in ADN programs....highly respected ones who post very high Board exam scores, higher than the BSN programs in the states they were taken in.

No surprise that the two of us in our 50's said no way, no how, to going back to get a BSN. However, the others voiced that same sentiment and that was a bit surprising to me, especially coming from the nurse who is a sole supporter. She's a good nurse, 10 years experience but would not go back to get a BSN. Said there are so many other things she could do with her life.

All agreed that getting a BSN would not: change the way we do our jobs, change our pay for the better, or increase the amount of respect we get from anybody. What we did agree on was that if a BSN becomes required, the nursing shortage will be far more critical than it is now considered, not only because fewer people will go into or be able to go into nursing, but most especially if current RNS's are not exempted in some way, they will be finding something else to do.

I consider myself professional. I don't need or want a BSN and do not feel it would get me anything and the costs in time and money would be really detrimental to the free time I enjoy and consider sacred. If I were interested in getting a BS, it wouldn't be in nursing. No one ever grills me on what kind of credentials I have behind my name. RN says it all to most folks. I do have lots of other university level credits, so I believe I do have a well-rounded base and can converse intelligently on a variety of subjects.

If BSN's become a requirement, I maintain that BSN programs will need to retool their requirements to prepare their nurses to hit the floor running much better than they do now. There won't be any ADN's or LPN's to get them out of hot water like there are now. Have to say that I learned more from 2 aides who had 50 years of experience between them my first job out of nursing school than I did in school. No teacher like experience. And that goes for all of us, regardless of how much of the alphabet you are able to write after your name.

[Q.]

All agreed that getting a BSN would not: change the way we do our jobs, change our pay for the better, or increase the amount of respect we get from anybody. What we did agree on was that if a BSN becomes required, the nursing shortage will be far more critical than it is now considered, not only because fewer people will go into or be able to go into nursing, but most especially if current RNS's are not exempted in some way, they will be finding something else to do.

This argument saddens me. This is moreso related to the comment (and wasn't sure if it was you or Deb or...?) that nursing schools need to change things and pump out RNs that can walk onto a floor and take a patient load. I mantain that is a huge disservice! I may sound crass, but the belief that that is what schools should do stems from a purely selfish mindset. Nursing education is not a factory that pumps out robots! And nor are we robots who just do tasks!

Again, should professions determine professional standards based upon what is the easiest, most attainable credential for the public to get? (and by easy I don't mean "easy" intellectually; I mean easy as in accessibility) Is that really what we want dictating our standards?

[tntrn, ASN, RN]

It might have been me, and if it wasn't, I'll agree with who ever did post it. I agree with that. IF nursing education isn't readily available, you're not going to get nurses . Period. And then what?

And if the nurses you do get are NOT able to hit the floor running, what's the advantage for having an all BSN staff? Someone there has to know how to get things done. I stick to my previous comment that having a BSN does make one a better nurse, a more professional nurse, or more respected. unless you get that message in one of those classes BSN nurses take.

[JMP]

It might have been me, and if it wasn't, I'll agree with who ever did post it. I agree with that. IF nursing education isn't readily available, you're not going to get nurses . Period. And then what?

And if the nurses you do get are NOT able to hit the floor running, what's the advantage for having an all BSN staff? Someone there has to know how to get things done. I stick to my previous comment that having a BSN does make one a better nurse, a more professional nurse, or more respected. unless you get that message in one of those classes BSN nurses take.

I do understand that this threatens the balance of nursing. However, let me reassure you that change has happened here, students still face long wait lists for seats in the BSN programs...the demand is still great for a spot. We have not faced a shortage, perhaps we will. This argument (who is the better nurse) is exactly why standardized educational requirements make sense.

[studentrn621]

all agreed that getting a bsn would not: change the way we do our jobs, change our pay for the better, or increase the amount of respect we get from anybody. what we did agree on was that if a bsn becomes required, the nursing shortage will be far more critical than it is now considered, not only because fewer people will go into or be able to go into nursing, but most especially if current rns's are not exempted in some way, they will be finding something else to do.

i don't think that this would make the nursing shortage more critical at all. bsn programs in my area are getting a large amount of applicants. one particular university got 800 applications for 180 seats. unfortunately, there just isn't enough educators out there right now so that the schools can take in larger classes. nursing is really big right now in my area and i just can't see people losing interest if a bsn is required.

and that whole thing about turning out bsn's that can hit the ground running. are you saying that all diploma and adn nurses are just ready to go? i don't think you are being far with that comment. you're way over generalizing here.

[tntrn, ASN, RN]

I think ADN and diploma nurses are "readier" to go. I can think of 4 BSN new-grad residents we've had in the fast 5 years who didn't know the importance of I and O. At all. Never mind in relation to the labor patient who'd had an epidural in for several hours.

Of course, there are exceptions always. But in my experience that's what I've seen. No, I don't ask them where they were trained. They usually are really vocal about that.

The nursing shortage will be more severe if all of us who would be forced back to school quit. That's a big bunch of nurses--potentially gone.

[JMP]

I think ADN and diploma nurses are "readier" to go. I can think of 4 BSN new-grad residents we've had in the fast 5 years who didn't know the importance of I and O. At all. Never mind in relation to the labor patient who'd had an epidural in for several hours.

Of course, there are exceptions always. But in my experience that's what I've seen. No, I don't ask them where they were trained. They usually are really vocal about that.

The nursing shortage will be more severe if all of us who would be forced back to school quit. That's a big bunch of nurses--potentially gone.

Please please please listen to this: No one is forced to DO ANYTHING. NO ONE has to go back to school...... NO ONE has to change. The system will change. You can still work. You can still think it is strange some nurses don't know how to do basics. No program is perfect. BSN will not HURT you or anyone else........I promise! It has come here ....it is entry to practice and we have all survived.

[Q.]

The nursing shortage will be more severe if all of us who would be forced back to school quit. That's a big bunch of nurses--potentially gone.

I don't forsee that happening.

Your argument is that because being an RN will mean having to have a Bachelor's, we will have no nurses. Does that same requirement seem to stop people becoming NPs? Docs? Pharmacists? Lawyers? Journalists? Statisticians? Are they all facing "shortages" because a 4 year college degree is required?

The nursing profession is already faced with a mass exodus of baby boomers eventually. While I think that there will be an initial shortage while new ones are being trained, overall I think nursing will actually be more attractive and see an increase.

I DO think your comments about BSN grads are somewhat judgemental and very blanketed; actually insulting in a way. It would be no different than if I said the majority of ADNs I see, while they can recite by rote why I&O's are important, they literally are laughed out of meetings because their speaking skills, language and writing abilities are substandard that as a profession we're not taken seriously.

[tntrn, ASN, RN]

I'm sure the writing skills of any group can come into question. Like I said, I and many of the ADN nurses I know, have many university credits in English, writing, foreign languages and many other subjects. We've just chosen to concentrate on the nursing part of our skill for the purpose of the job we choose to do. Nursing skills, on the other hand, are a vital necessity to be a nurse. Writing skills, and speaking in meeting skills, are less important. Meetings in general, are things I try to avoid. I'd much rather be on the floor, tallying up I's and O's.

Per capita, I'd say the need for nurses is far greater than the need for NP's, Pharmacists, and especially lawyers.

And even though a BSN wasn't required in Canada, doesn't mean some person somewhere won't try to require it in NY or other places. It's not over until it's over :)

I'm off to work now: where I will be professional, speak eloquently and chart perfectly :rotfl: