Is the RN--->BSN push a clever way to get older nurses out of the way

MunoRN, RN · Apr 11, 2014

The preference for BSN's is primarily what's called "degree inflation" which typically isn't considered to be a good thing for a job market or our general economy. There are some arguments to be made for BSNs, but any argument that doesn't recognize the degree-inflation component will always be just half-baked.

MunoRN, RN · Apr 11, 2014

Hello everyone. I am new here. Everything I have read suggests the push for higher degrees is due to better patient outcomes. In my area, the tech school ADN graduates have a 95% job placement rate and that was from a very recent study, so the need for ADNs is still there. However, requiring BSNs is a GOOD thing because the higher the barriers to entry become the pay inevitably gets better. Simple economics. So these hospitals requiring this will discover the day when they have to pay higher wages as a result of raising the barriers to entry. Hence, it's a good thing economically for nurses in the long term.

Degree inflation doesn't involve increased pay. The largest employer of new bachelors degree grads is the service industry, as a result it's now become a requirement to have a bacehlors degree to apply at some retail chains. They pay no more (and actually less relative to inflation) than they did prior to requiring bachelors degrees.

Nursing is in a unique situation in that we have both ADN and BSN grads working the same jobs at the same time, which is an ideal way of determining if your theory is true. If employers are willing to pay more for BSNs then that's what we would be seeing. In reality, for the same job there is little if any difference in pay, which means we won't make any more if we all had BSNs, just like we wouldn't make any more for the same job if we all had DNPs.

If someone working at McDonalds goes out and gets a doctorate, are they going to get paid more for working at McDonalds?

subee, MSN, CRNA · Apr 11, 2014

Monro, you are usually spot on but I disagree with your argument. If everyone at McDonalds was REQUIRED to have a doctorate, then no one would apply for the job (or could apply)and to get workers, they would have to pay more. Look how physical therapists have kept their numbers low and earning power high by limiting their numbers. Nursing, on the other hand, has dumbed the BSN down so much that it's practically meaningless. I worked with an ADN working on her BSN and asked how she was enjoying her public health rotation. Her "rotation" consisted of speaking at a barber shop about the perils of hypertension. There is no substitute for 13 weeks of knocking on patients' doors and appreciating what the home situation can do to a discharge plan. That's part of getting the bigger picture that a BSN should be providing.

Carrie RN · Apr 12, 2014

Nursing has always been cyclic. I remember the 80s. Nobody cared about a BSN and nurses made $8.00/hr. Now, I can't swing a dead cat around without hitting another nurse. Plenty of older nurses and my age that are smarter than me. My aunt could wipe the floor with me and my BSN nephew, she is a diploma nurse.

MunoRN, RN · Apr 12, 2014

Monro, you are usually spot on but I disagree with your argument. If everyone at McDonalds was REQUIRED to have a doctorate, then no one would apply for the job (or could apply)and to get workers, they would have to pay more. Look how physical therapists have kept their numbers low and earning power high by limiting their numbers. Nursing, on the other hand, has dumbed the BSN down so much that it's practically meaningless. I worked with an ADN working on her BSN and asked how she was enjoying her public health rotation. Her "rotation" consisted of speaking at a barber shop about the perils of hypertension. There is no substitute for 13 weeks of knocking on patients' doors and appreciating what the home situation can do to a discharge plan. That's part of getting the bigger picture that a BSN should be providing.

What you're describing is the opposite of degree inflation; when an employer or market decides they are going to require a higher degree not because of a glut of higher degreed applicants then higher pay often results to create enough applicants that meet their requirements.

Degree inflation is when the market doesn't necessarily want applicants to have a higher degree but there are enough applicants with higher degrees that it can be used as a filter for the applicant pool, the difference here is that it doesn't typically result in driving wages up, and actually results in a net loss of income for applicants.

In other words, if McDonalds wanted only doctoral applicants but needed to pay more to make that happen, that's much different than if they don't particularly need doctoral applicants but half their applicants have doctorates so they can exclude the non-doctorates. I'd argue it's the latter that is affecting nursing.

SummitRN, BSN, RN · Apr 12, 2014

There is an employer preference in many areas whether for HR ease, social bias, institutional goals, or evidenced based. There IS a statistical preference for BSN nurses in the acute care setting amongst physicians. In some areas, there is no preference.

More education is always good on its own. There is such a thing as diminishing returns. I personally don't think the BSN is past the point of diminishing returns. That said, I think all of nursing education needs some major changes.

To the OPs question, I don't think any of it is aimed at pushing older nurses out, whether the OP meant "experienced" or "not in their 20s" when she typed "older." Before anyone gets mad, I am only "older" by the latter definition.

In a parallel discussion, take a look at how the paramedics fight viciously about whether they should have to have an applied associates degree (most don't but a few states are starting to require it). Many vehemently oppose the extra educational requirements. They get to do tons of technical skills that most nurses don't, but they don't make what nurses make.

PMFB-RN, RN · Apr 12, 2014

Second, too many ways to obtain a BSN degree these days, anyone can become one in 15 months with those ABSN programs,

15 months? It's worse than that, it can be, and is, done in 12 months with some of the ABSN programs.

PMFB-RN, RN · Apr 12, 2014

I also suspect that the BSN requirement is somewhat of a class-based sorting tool since a university education is a traditional marker of middle class status. Only 30 percent of American adults have earned a bachelor's degree of any kind. Although some people are oblivious, prestige is critical to our higher learning system.
Universities (places where we earn BSN degrees) are situated on top of the prestige hierarchy based on public perception, while community colleges and technical schools (places where we earn ASNs and nursing diplomas) are positioned toward the bottom of the prestige pyramid due to lack of exclusivity. Before anyone gets angry over my post, I have an ASN degree.

Well said!!! I think your comments are spot on.

PMFB-RN, RN · Apr 12, 2014

Nursing is in a unique situation in that we have both ADN and BSN grads working the same jobs at the same time, which is an ideal way of determining if your theory is true. If employers are willing to pay more for BSNs then that's what we would be seeing.

Except that employers of nurses have found a way around that. The used the false and self serving "NURSING SHORTAGE!" propaganda to lobby state and federal governments for tax payer funds to drasticaly increase access to nursing programs. They did this by both expanding currently programs, and creating lots of new ones. Plus we also have the numerous for profit schools taking advantage of the situation.

As an example, the state university nearest my home used to offer one nursing program. A BSN program that graduated one class a year. This was the case in year 2000. By 2012 the traditional BSN program had moved to graduating 2 classes a year, with each class being double in size of what it was before their expansion. The also offer an accelerated 12 month BSN graduating two classes a year, and a direct entry masters program graduating one class a year. Each expansion, or new program was accompanied by press releases trumpeting about how the school was working to solve the "NURSING SHORTAGE!" These press releases were often accompanied by descriptions of all the great employment oppertunities that were availabe to nursing grads. Currently many of their graduates are facing the same difficulties getting jobs that we have seen described here on AN. I know, I often precept them and get to hear about their difficulties.

The employers of nurses get to have their cake and eat it too. They get to have the prestige of a degreed nursing workforce, while at the same time they get to weed out all those undesirable blue collar types, get to pay them less as wages, working conditions, and benifits have all declined in our area over the last 6 years.

TheCommuter, BSN, RN · Apr 12, 2014

There are some arguments to be made for BSNs, but any argument that doesn't recognize the degree-inflation component will always be just half-baked.

My argument on page one recognized the degree-inflation component, but I simply used a different term to refer to the phenomenon: credential inflation.

MunoRN, RN · Apr 12, 2014

My argument on page one recognized the degree-inflation component, but I simply used a different term to refer to the phenomenon: credential inflation.

You actually presented a very good description of degree/credential inflation in nursing which is why I don't consider your arguments/views on the subject to be half-baked. Meriwhen, PFMB, and BrandonLPN also recognize the role of degree/credential inflation in nursing and that the issue of BSN as a requirement is probably far more nuanced than many seem to think it is.

martymoose, BSN, RN · Apr 12, 2014

Hello everyone. Everything I have read suggests the push for higher degrees is due to better patient outcomes. .

LOL better pt outcomes. Tell my frequent flyer for the 5th time this year ( and many others like this pt) that my having a BSN is going to keep him out of the hospital. Maybe my new found knowledge will help them quit smoking, eating,drinking, and doing drugs, and that their heart will suddenly go from an ef of 15% to normal. oh, and this demographic is usually under 60.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.