I'll admit it. I'm not a nurse. I did want to be a nurse at one time, but now Im going the RT route. I researched nursing for a long time before making the decision NOT to become one. Considering the fact that most of you complain (on here at least) of not getting fair treatment, of getting cursed out by doctors/patients, of being overstressed, overworked and not getting they pay you feel you deserve, why oh why won't you join a union? Why do you come here to vent about administration or policies when it doesn't have to be that way? I want to know what makes you feel that you don't deserve to be heard.
Iron workers have a union, boiler-makers have a union, auto workers have a union. Not to sound holier-than-thou-, but most RN have more education than those that I've previously mentioned. So, why is it that you refuse to unite, and stand against a system that seems to disrespect you? I have to know.
Whatever your opinion of nursing unions I can respect your right to have it. I only ask if you are not willing to support a union don't even apply to a hospital that has a organized nursing department- we don't want you. Many nurses have put thier careers on the line to participate in a strike if called upon to do so. As a result working conditions, job rules, benifits, professional autonomy and opportunities for advancement may be very attractive at that hospital. If you accept the benifits won for the nurses through thier union you should also be willing to participate in a job action if called upon to do so to keep those benifits. If you are not willing to strike please work somewhere else. No one wants a strike. No one wins in a strike. But sometimes, as a last resort, it takes a strike to make your collective voice loud enough to be heard over the other voices competing for the hospitals budget. The membership must vote to authorize any strike, the membership must approve any contract.
As an individual member of some unions you can ask that the portion of your dues that are used for political action be witheld- better yet, get involved and make your opinion heard. The unions want to represent thier members- if what they are advocating isn't your voice- change thier focus- you are the union.
whatever your opinion of nursing unions i can respect your right to have it. i only ask if you are not willing to support a union don't even apply to a hospital that has a organized nursing department- we don't want you. many nurses have put thier careers on the line to participate in a strike if called upon to do so. as a result working conditions, job rules, benifits, professional autonomy and opportunities for advancement may be very attractive at that hospital. if you accept the benifits won for the nurses through thier union you should also be willing to participate in a job action if called upon to do so to keep those benifits. if you are not willing to strike please work somewhere else. no one wants a strike. no one wins in a strike. but sometimes, as a last resort, it takes a strike to make your collective voice loud enough to be heard over the other voices competing for the hospitals budget. the membership must vote to authorize any strike, the membership must approve any contract.
as an individual member of some unions you can ask that the portion of your dues that are used for political action be witheld- better yet, get involved and make your opinion heard. the unions want to represent thier members- if what they are advocating isn't your voice- change thier focus- you are the union.
see, this is part of the problem i have with unions. by nature, they are divisive. the whole, "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality is irritating. with all unions, it's always "us vs. them." for all the talk of solidarity and brotherhood, unions draw a formal dividing line within an organization.
as a result working conditions, job rules, benifits, professional autonomy and opportunities for advancement may be very attractive at that hospital.
your whole, "don't tread on my turf" attitude is double talk. you claim that you're for unionization for the same reasons that you're telling other nurses not to work somewhere? so which is it? shouldn't a nurse be able to go out and get the best deal they can? isn't that what unions are about? or is that only when union nurses are involved?
as for union involvement, i have no desire to go to meetings and listen to gripe sessions about how bad things are. if i want to do that, i'll turn on the news channel. as a union member, i have no individual voice, i have a collective voice. to effect change in a union, i would have to invest significant time and energy into selling my ideas and persuading others to my point of view. why would i do that when i could spend the same (or less) amount of time finding a job environment that more closely suited my needs and desires?
while i believe in standing up for one's beliefs, i just don't agree with the angry/adversarial attitude that most unionites display.
See, this is part of the problem I have with unions. By nature, they are divisive. The whole, "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality is irritating. With all unions, it's always "us vs. them." For all the talk of solidarity and brotherhood, unions draw a formal dividing line within an organization.
Your whole, "don't tread on my turf" attitude is double talk. You claim that you're for unionization for the same reasons that you're telling other nurses not to work somewhere? So which is it? Shouldn't a nurse be able to go out and get the best deal they can? Isn't that what unions are about? Or is that only when union nurses are involved?
As for union involvement, I have no desire to go to meetings and listen to gripe sessions about how bad things are. If I want to do that, I'll turn on the news channel. As a union member, I have no individual voice, I have a collective voice. To effect change in a union, I would have to invest significant time and energy into selling my ideas and persuading others to my point of view. Why would I do that when I could spend the same (or less) amount of time finding a job environment that more closely suited my needs and desires?
While I believe in standing up for one's beliefs, I just don't agree with the angry/adversarial attitude that most unionites display.
I,m sorry- I just don't understand your point of view. All I am saying is that involves risk and effort to accomplish the gains a nursing union has made over years of negotiation. If you join the hospital knowing you will not support the memberships decision to strike, if it ever occurs, you are reaping the benifits of other nurses risks and effort without putting forth any effort of taking any risk yourself. That seems dishonest. The union is only as strong as the members behind it. If a bunch of nurses come into the hospital who are not willing to support a strike then it won't be long before all the gains will be reversed and all out sacrafice will be for nothing. As for investing significant time to selling others on your point of view vs working elswhere- that is what I'm saying-work elswhere if you don't want to contribute to the unions goals- just don't steal our gains then stab us in the back if a strike comes. In fact, you are increasing our risk. If the hospital knows there are a number of nurses that will cross from the outset then thay have no reason to offer thier best to us. The greatest tool we have is not a strike but the fear of a strike. If they don't fear us going out you have taken the tool we have used to get where we are, and made you want to work here to begin with!
I,m sorry- I just don't understand your point of view. All I am saying is that involves risk and effort to accomplish the gains a nursing union has made over years of negotiation. If you join the hospital knowing you will not support the memberships decision to strike, if it ever occurs, you are reaping the benifits of other nurses risks and effort without putting forth any effort of taking any risk yourself. That seems dishonest.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and pose some hypothetical questions. I appreciate your candor. However, if your union chooses to strike because they think you're being treated unfairly as a union member, why shouldn't I take advantage of the situation if it means more money for me, better benefits, better working hours, etc? Isn't that what you're doing to the company when you organize a union?
Can you tell me what the largest cost is that an employer pays in today's economy? Why do you want someone you've likely never met managing your retirement?
The union is only as strong as the members behind it. If a bunch of nurses come into the hospital who are not willing to support a strike then it won't be long before all the gains will be reversed and all out sacrafice will be for nothing.
But if I gain from it, how are "all the gains" reversed? They may be reversed for the union, but not for me. Selfish? It's all a matter of perspective.
As for investing significant time to selling others on your point of view vs working elswhere- that is what I'm saying-work elswhere if you don't want to contribute to the unions goals- just don't steal our gains then stab us in the back if a strike comes. In fact, you are increasing our risk. If the hospital knows there are a number of nurses that will cross from the outset then thay have no reason to offer thier best to us. The greatest tool we have is not a strike but the fear of a strike. If they don't fear us going out you have taken the tool we have used to get where we are, and made you want to work here to begin with!
As far as work is concerned, I put my profession in front of my job. This part may be hard to understand, but I can be a nurse anywhere. My livelihood isn't centered around my employer as yours seems to be around the union. I'm an RN first, an employee second.
If my employer treats me fairly and provides an appropriate wage, I reciprocate that with my loyalty and service. However, if my employer treats me poorly or seeks to undermine my earning potential compared to others in my profession then I would move on and seek employment elsewhere. It's their job and they can pay whatever they want and treat people as they please, but that doesn't mean I have to work there.
As for fearing a strike, do you really believe that? Invoking FEAR to get your way? See, this is a point of view that I don't understand. This sounds like a mob tactic to me.
There was a time and place for unions when there were few laws to protect workers and they were exploited in such a way that's detrimental to society at large. Today, there are ample labor laws to protect workers from exploitation. Today's unions are about nothing more than a money grab.
Union ideas come from the great ideology of socialism. H2M has POSITIVE quotes about union's from Big Union websites. SHOCKING! They want everybody to be equal, but guess what? The only way to make everyone absolutely equal is to take everything from everyone so no one has any more than the next. And don't give me the tired rhetoric of "slave labor" and working class. America doesn't have a "working class" and "elites". America has employees and employers. No one has to work for any benefit except for his own. Unless you're in a union and have to do exactly what they want or risk intimidation which I know of personally by the NALC(National Association of Letter Carriers). And their talk and motivation sounds exactly like what the ANA promotes for nurses in hospitals and around the country.
Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.
no unions for me.
i believe if we're going to elevate how the public views rns and the work we do, we need to be professionals and act like one. when was the last time you heard a doc whine about being treated unfairly, overwhelming paperwork, or having to see 40 patients in one day? i've heard them talk about it, but never whine.
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gallup poll names nurses america's most trusted profession for nearly a decade
according to an annual gallup survey on honesty and ethics, eighty-three percent of americans placed nurses in the number one position as the most trusted professionals for the ninth consecutive year.
nurses have averaged an 81 percent 'very high' or 'high' rating for ethical and honesty standards since first appearing on the list in 1999.
the exception was 2001, in the aftermath of 9/11, when firefighters held the top spot.
There was a time and place for unions when there were few laws to protect workers and they were exploited in such a way that's detrimental to society at large. Today, there are ample labor laws to protect workers from exploitation. Today's unions are about nothing more than a money grab.
I think you better take a little bit of time to read the Kentucky River Decisions which effecctively acts to strip OT eligibility from charge nurses.
BUSHCO has pushed back hard against the rights of workers to collectively bargain for improved wages and working conditions and attempted to restrict the potection of these laws. A few examples come to mind in no particular order:
A. Stripping TSA employees of collective bargaining rights and due process.
B. Attempted suspension of Davis-Bacon in the gulf states following Katrina.
C. Attempting to strip OT rights from workers (And advising employers how to cut pay for workers.)
D. Attempts to destroy SS.
The laws are only as good as those charged with enforcing them. Your belief that the law will protect you as an individual absent a strong labor movement that aggressively protects those laws is naive.
Professionalism and union membership are not mutually exclusive. If anything the unionized hospitals achieve higher quality care which by definition indicates a higher standard of care. For that matter the standard of societal achievement in areas such as education and health outcomes tends to be better in the states with a strong labor movement tradition.
I think you better take a little bit of time to read the Kentucky River Decisions which effecctively acts to strip OT eligibility from nurses.
BUSHCO has pushed back hard against the rights of workers to collectively bargain for improved wages and working conditions and attempted to restrict the potection of these laws. A few examples come to mind in no particular order:
A. Stripping TSA employees of collective bargaining rights and due process.
B. Attempted suspension of Davis-Bacon in the gulf states following Katrina.
C. Attempting to strip OT rights from workers (And advising employers how to cut pay for workers.)
D. Attempts to destroy SS.
The laws are only as good as those charged with enforcing them. Your belief that the law will protect you as an individual absent a strong labor movement that aggressively protects those laws is naive.
...
The way you word your points is politically loaded and obviously biased towards labor and unions. You think that unions are a good thing in today's work world, I don't. I believe our difference of opinion comes from a fundamental difference in our political beliefs and outlook on life.
I come from an entrepreneurial background and have signed both sides of a paycheck. I've been in situations many times where I've paid my people but failed to write myself a check. You seem to believe that employers are nothing more than bottomless money pits that exist for the benefit of workers.
I won't join a union for several reasons. First of all, unions are heavily political. I do not want my union dues going to candidates that my union supports but I don't personally agree with.
Secondly, I feel that if nurses want to be treated like a PROFESSION they should start acting professional. IMO unions are not professional. You mention boiler-makers and iron workers as members of unions and that is very true. Both of those occupations are trades, not professions. I believe one of the reasons nurses don't get the respect they would like is because they are viewed as vocationally-trained help instead of professionals.
I would like to add the caveat, though, that I am grateful for the benefits that unions have provided us and the pioneering efforts they have made to make the workplace safer.
Teachers are professionals and they have unions.
Airline pilots are professionals and they have unions.
Police officers are professionals and they have unions.
Firefighters are professionals and they have unions.
University professors are professionals and many of them have unions.
I can see some reasons not to join a union but 'professionalism' is not a valid one.
I have several teacher friends that belong to the CTA. They are dedicated, excellent teachers who often spend a significant amount of their own money and invest a lot of their own time into their kids. They don't get paid overtime for the additional efforts they put in, in fact one teacher's contract says she only has to work from 0730 to 1415, she gets a 1 hour lunch break and one period without kids. She's actually with her students only 5 hours each day and gets 3 months off in summer and 2 1/2 weeks at Christmas ... and that's established by contract. Oh yeah, and she doesn't have to pay into social security.
The one friend I'm talking about puts in far more time than that, without a doubt, but her contract says that she doesn't have to. According to her, there are a number of tenured teachers who only do the minimums... we're paying those teachers north of $60k a year for 25 hours work a week, 8 1/2 months a year.
Good return on the investment?
Another reason I'm down on unions is because I've heard the, "it's not my job" line too many times. As a new nurse, I worked at a hospital where the aids were union, but the RNs weren't. Post mortem care was NOT in their job description. The PCU with a 1:3 ratio was slammed one night when my palliative care pt finally expired. I had a full code trach/vent/PEG that was on the bubble so I asked an aid (who was doing her online training) to get the morgue litter and move the body downstairs. The answer I got? You guessed it.
From that point on, I vowed I'd never work in a union.
Very well put.
The stuff you describe above is why I've been anti-union for so long. (My wife is a CTA member...I know...believe me, I know) However, after nearly 20 years of unrepresented professional work (for both unionized and nonunionized companies) before entering nursing school, I've seen enough workplace abuses to have gone over to the other side.
The company abuses that I've seen outweigh the union abuses that I've seen.
I figure I have more power to create change in the union than I have to create change in the corporate board room and executive suites.
I think you better take a little bit of time to read the Kentucky River Decisions which effecctively acts to strip OT eligibility from charge nurses.
BUSHCO has pushed back hard against the rights of workers to collectively bargain for improved wages and working conditions and attempted to restrict the potection of these laws. A few examples come to mind in no particular order:
A. Stripping TSA employees of collective bargaining rights and due process.
B. Attempted suspension of Davis-Bacon in the gulf states following Katrina.
C. Attempting to strip OT rights from workers (And advising employers how to cut pay for workers.)
D. Attempts to destroy SS.
The laws are only as good as those charged with enforcing them. Your belief that the law will protect you as an individual absent a strong labor movement that aggressively protects those laws is naive.
Professionalism and union membership are not mutually exclusive. If anything the unionized hospitals achieve higher quality care which by definition indicates a higher standard of care. For that matter the standard of societal achievement in areas such as education and health outcomes tends to be better in the states with a strong labor movement tradition.
A. TSA should never have been allowed to unionize, as a part of homeland security and the federal government such an arrangement is lunacy (yes that goes for all federal unions). TSA is charged with a vital security function and should have been formed as an armed service under the UCMJ (as ICE and the Border Patrol should have been) but Democrats got their way and weakened any hope of security by selling out to the bosses that paid them off with union dues.
B. Davis-Bacon is a price fixing scheme that compliance with requires an inordinate amount of resources of business and federal oversight, nothing more. why would suspending it in favor of open bidding and a free market be bad exactly?
C. Exactly when did the president "try to strip OT from workers", if you don't want to be a charge or aren't compensated for it the way you think you should be, don't be a charge.
D. Newsflash - SS is failing under its own weight, sombody needs to either fix it or dump it completely before it collapses. it is my money that is taken from me to put in a "lockbox" (it is actually a pay-as-you-go system and no real "lockbox" exists). why shouldn't i be able to invest in a place of my choosing instead of the nanny state choosing for me?
labor unions protect their bosses, not the workers. if they were actually for workers then they wouldn't create such an adversarial atmosphere and destroy the places that employ workers. unions run business into the ground through seniority schemes, 'job security' schemes that includes protection of mediocre and sometimes dangerous workers, make it almost impossible to have flexibility in staffing or be responsive to changing conditions. lets not forget what unions have done for public education (it has become so bad that parents are pulling their kids out in droves and unions have gone to the courts to force kids into failed schools), cruise lines (no major U.S. flagged cruise lines anymore), the auto industry (crumbling), the steel industry (slowly coming back from the union led destruction of the US industry) to name a few.
i've said it before and i'll say it again, nurses need to participate in a professional association to lobby for what we feel is important through political action, voluntary membership, and stick to issues that are appropriate to lobby for from our profession. we should never ever accept a union run by bosses for their own agenda that extorts money (ie you pay a kick-back to the union ["dues"] or you can't work), protects the mediocre or dangerous practitioner, prevents hiring the most qualified person in favor of the most senior, and prevents flexibility in response to changing conditions and once in place ("certified") cannot be removed through routine elections by the entire workforce.
suanna
1,549 Posts
Whatever your opinion of nursing unions I can respect your right to have it. I only ask if you are not willing to support a union don't even apply to a hospital that has a organized nursing department- we don't want you. Many nurses have put thier careers on the line to participate in a strike if called upon to do so. As a result working conditions, job rules, benifits, professional autonomy and opportunities for advancement may be very attractive at that hospital. If you accept the benifits won for the nurses through thier union you should also be willing to participate in a job action if called upon to do so to keep those benifits. If you are not willing to strike please work somewhere else. No one wants a strike. No one wins in a strike. But sometimes, as a last resort, it takes a strike to make your collective voice loud enough to be heard over the other voices competing for the hospitals budget. The membership must vote to authorize any strike, the membership must approve any contract.
As an individual member of some unions you can ask that the portion of your dues that are used for political action be witheld- better yet, get involved and make your opinion heard. The unions want to represent thier members- if what they are advocating isn't your voice- change thier focus- you are the union.