Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union

[SBinGA]

I'll admit it. I'm not a nurse. I did want to be a nurse at one time, but now Im going the RT route. I researched nursing for a long time before making the decision NOT to become one. Considering the fact that most of you complain (on here at least) of not getting fair treatment, of getting cursed out by doctors/patients, of being overstressed, overworked and not getting they pay you feel you deserve, why oh why won't you join a union? Why do you come here to vent about administration or policies when it doesn't have to be that way? I want to know what makes you feel that you don't deserve to be heard.

Iron workers have a union, boiler-makers have a union, auto workers have a union. Not to sound holier-than-thou-, but most RN have more education than those that I've previously mentioned. So, why is it that you refuse to unite, and stand against a system that seems to disrespect you? I have to know.

SB

[HM2VikingRN, RN]

i have been reading jeffrey sachs' new book. common wealth economics for a crowded planet.

anyway given the somewhat vehement opposition to taking the country in a better direction i found the following information intriguing. in comparing us economic performance to the nordic countries or countries who follow a social welfare model the following data was intriguing.

p 262

in terms of wealth and per capita income, the social-welfare states again defy the stereotype that high taxation leads to lower living standards. on average the social-welfare states have a higher per capita gnp than the free market countries...the poorest 20 percent of households in the social-welfare countries take in around 9.6 percent of the national income, as compared to only 7.3 percent of the national income in free market countries.

(that means the average household in the social welfare countries brings in about 24,465 vs. 17,553 for a free market country.)

broadly based strategies for prosperity have yielded superior economic performance. the social welfare countries have very high technical innovation and patent creation. (pull your cell phone out of your pocket. if its a nolia or ericsson its from a scandinavian country.)

from page 263

free market r&d 1.8% gdp

social welfare r&d 3.0%

advantage social welfare model.

world economic forum technology average rank (1 best)

free market 16

social-welfare 6

advantage: social welfare model.

the advantages of the social welfare model in economic performance are well documented.

[HM2VikingRN, RN]

Collective bargaining is a right grounded in the right to free association guaranteed by the first amendment. In other words you as an individual have the right to freely associate and join together with others for the purposes of negotiating for improved working conditions.

The problem that I personally have with some of these posts is not that people choose to not be a member. I have a real problem with posters saying that there should not be unions and/or would deny others the choice to form a union.

[HM2VikingRN, RN]

I come from an entrepreneurial background and have signed both sides of a paycheck. I've been in situations many times where I've paid my people but failed to write myself a check. You seem to believe that employers are nothing more than bottomless money pits that exist for the benefit of workers.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I agree that we need to disagree. Organizations are not bottomless money pits that exist for the benefit of workers. Organizations are only as good as the people who work there. American workers have not received a fair share of the gains from growth in productivity since 1973. In other words productivity has grown and wages remained flat. Organizations succeed only through the efforts of their workers. I have no problem with owners making profits I do have a problem when the workers do not see wage growth that matches that of productivity gains.

http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/tabfig_01.html

The strong union difference is the results shown between 1945-73. Since 1973 as the unions were deliberately weakened through government policies wages have been flattened for the middle class. Reagan/Bushonomics have resulted in decreased economic mobility for the middle and working classes. A child born in the EU has more opportunity for economic mobility than a child born in the US.

[menetopali]

Collective bargaining is a right grounded in the right to free association guaranteed by the first amendment. In other words you as an individual have the right to freely associate and join together with others for the purposes of negotiating for improved working conditions.

The problem that I personally have with some of these posts is not that people choose to not be a member. I have a real problem with posters saying that there should not be unions and/or would deny others the choice to form a union.

1) for unions to have power they must control the labor force, hence they advocate "closed shops" or places where the worker cannot chose membership. if they want to work, they must pay the extortion money. the right to freely associated is violated in every "closed shop" by unions through restrictions on who an employer may hire or negotiate with. you can't claim 'free association' to form a union while taking that same right away from those with whom you disagree.

2) i don't recall anyone saying that you can't have the choice to join a union - only that they are a bad idea, not helpful to the profession, extort money from workers, destroy industries, impede response to changing conditions, protect the mediocre and dangerous. if that's a group you want to belong to, its your right to support such a thing; all i ask is that you be honest about the consequences of unions compared to professional associations.

3) unions are a poor choice for a profession to influence the political process as they consistently side with one party. that effectively destroys any credibility that nurses as a group have to address public health issues. it also alienates at least half the potential supporters from being willing to join. nobody in their right mind believes the teachers unions when they claim school choice and home schooling is bad for children's education (California appellate court this past March), nobody believes the police union when they say no brutality occurred while we watch the video of a police beating (Rodney King), and nobody believes university professors when they claim they maintain academic integrity and intellectual honesty (Ward Churchill). three professions that have no public credibility that were once respected by most of America thanks to unions.

[diveRN]

Sigh.

The root of your being is tied to financial fairness and equality and a fundamental belief that workers are owed something by their employer other than the wage they earn. Apart from wages and those things establishbed by law, employers don't owe ANYTHING to employees.

You mention productivity growth. You're parroting a liberal talking point without giving it much thought. Ever consider that the increases in productivity are tied to large leaps in technology in the time frame you indicate? In terms of advancement, the last 35 years has seen technological gains that exceeds the entire rest of recorded history.

For example, let's take the computer. If I invest in a computer system to keep track of my inventory and my financials, I can eliminate a bookkeeper and the staff required to manage my stock and probably keep better tabs on it because I can manage the data in real time. My productivity goes up. What I hear you saying is that because I invest my money and effort in new technology to increase productivity, I should pay my remaining staff more?

I don't buy it.

Also, the economy from 1947 to the early 1970s was largely manufacturing based. Beginning in the early 1970s, our economy began a transition to being service based. Increasing costs of manufacturing played no small part in effecting this shift. Manufacturing jobs often go overseas because they cost too damn much here.

Wonder why that is?

I have to get ready for work so I'll close with this. Few people ever achieve financial independence by working a job, certainly not in an entry level or blue collar positions. You seek to legislate financial independence through the mandated redistribution of wealth because you think the 'average' worker isn't capable of going out and starting their own successful enterprise.

I think it's just the opposite. I think this country was founded by risk takers who got tired of being under someone else's thumb.

I chose to be an RN because I grew weary of the business world. I sacrificed a significantly higher income for less stress and more time with my family. That was MY choice.

[menetopali]

I refer people to "Capitalism and Freedom" or "Free to Choose" if you are more of a TV watcher. I also recommend "Wealth of Nations" and "The Forgotten Man" is a good starting read about economics and the effects of centrally planned economic policy.

[diveRN]

Teachers are professionals and they have unions.

Airline pilots are professionals and they have unions.

Police officers are professionals and they have unions.

Firefighters are professionals and they have unions.

University professors are professionals and many of them have unions.

This thread is dying and so I'll do my part to let it.

Teachers go on strike and the students suffer. Unprofessional.

Airline pilots go on strike and the public at large suffers. Unprofessional.

Police officers go on strike and the public is endangered. Unprofessional.

Firefighters go on strike .. would you want the firehouse in your neighborhood closed down?

University professors go on strike and ... well, few people really notice.

If nurses go on strike, it goes against the fiber and grain of what nursing is all about - selflessness, caring, and helping others.

Unprofessional.

I can see some reasons not to join a union but 'professionalism' is not a valid one.

I'd pay money to hear you tell that to an acutely ill patient and their family staying in a hospital whose nurses are on strike.

Fin.

[HM2VikingRN, RN]

2) i don't recall anyone saying that you can't have the choice to join a union - only that they are a bad idea, not helpful to the profession, extort money from workers, destroy industries, impede response to changing conditions, protect the mediocre and dangerous. if that's a group you want to belong to, its your right to support such a thing; all i ask is that you be honest about the consequences of unions compared to professional associations.

quote]

Quite clearly you indicated in the following that:

A. TSA should never have been allowed to unionize, as a part of homeland security and the federal government such an arrangement is lunacy (yes that goes for all federal unions).

whole groups of workers should not have been allowed the option to form a union.

[HM2VikingRN, RN]

.....

However, after nearly 20 years of unrepresented professional work (for both unionized and nonunionized companies) before entering nursing school, I've seen enough workplace abuses to have gone over to the other side.

The company abuses that I've seen outweigh the union abuses that I've seen.

I figure I have more power to create change in the union than I have to create change in the corporate board room and executive suites.

Exactly what others have said.....

[HM2VikingRN, RN]

This thread is dying and so I'll do my part to let it.

Teachers go on strike and the students suffer. Unprofessional.

Airline pilots go on strike and the public at large suffers. Unprofessional.

Police officers go on strike and the public is endangered. Unprofessional.

Firefighters go on strike .. would you want the firehouse in your neighborhood closed down?

University professors go on strike and ... well, few people really notice.

If nurses go on strike, it goes against the fiber and grain of what nursing is all about - selflessness, caring, and helping others.

Unprofessional.

I'd pay money to hear you tell that to an acutely ill patient and their family staying in a hospital whose nurses are on strike.

Fin.

Most states designate public safety employees as essential. In other words they are forbidden from striking. In exchange a mechanism of binding arbitration for wage settlements is often put in place. I think most nurses would be quite happy to accept this designation for a similar deal. Hospitals won't accept this proposal because of increased settlement costs. (Arbitration tends to yield greater wage settlements for employees as the union presents professional cases that justify salary demands)

Nurses and teachers strike for more than wage and benefit reasons. The driving force is usually the desire to improve student and patient services.

MNA struck in MPLS/St Paul MN several years ago. Wages and benefits did play a part but the real issues were over safe staffing ratios. MNA won through collective bargaining what CNA gained legislatively in CA. MNA also advocated for MN nurses by getting the legislature to pass a law forbidding mandatory OT. Nurses can decline OT for reasons of safety r/t fatigue. This action benefited not only the members represented by MNA but also non represented members.

Taking a principled stand for students or patients is hardly unprofessional. If anything it represents the highest degree of professionalism.

[Music in My Heart]

This thread is dying and so I'll do my part to let it.

Teachers go on strike and the students suffer. Unprofessional.

Airline pilots go on strike and the public at large suffers. Unprofessional.

Police officers go on strike and the public is endangered. Unprofessional.

Firefighters go on strike .. would you want the firehouse in your neighborhood closed down?

University professors go on strike and ... well, few people really notice.

If nurses go on strike, it goes against the fiber and grain of what nursing is all about - selflessness, caring, and helping others.

Unprofessional.

I'd pay money to hear you tell that to an acutely ill patient and their family staying in a hospital whose nurses are on strike.

Fin.

A teacher without a union contract gets fired because a vociferous and/or locally powerful parent doesn't like them -- too bad for the teacher.

An airline pilot gets fired because s/he can be replaced with a young one who works for 60% -- too bad for the gray-hair.

A police officer gets fired because s/he was making waves that the chief didn't like -- too bad for the ethical guy.

A firefighter gets fired because s/he is pushing too hard to bring in new, expensive equipment that would make the job safer but which the chief opposes -- too bad for him/her.

Any of the above gets fired to create space for a friend or family member to get hired -- too bad for not being connected.

A nurse gets fired for not taking s**t from an arrogant prick of a doc or for pushing too hard on how the hospital isn't complaint with their own infection-control policies -- too bad.

You see, all these people were working as at-will employees and weren't formally terminated for the stated reasons -- they were simply terminated for no cause at all. If only they'd had contracts that guaranteed due process.

I have personally seen similar stories carried out inside of companies for whom I've worked. As an operations manager, I even helped it happen because I had no real choice -- go along with the boss or be out of work in a bad economy with a sick child at home. If I had opposed the boss, the only difference was that I would've been walked out the door, too. Too bad that poor guy didn't have a contract. Did I leave as soon as I could find a way out? You bet I did. Did anything change in that f***ked up little place? Nope. They're still stumbling along screwing their employees and their customers alike. How they haven't yet gone under I simply can't fathom.

Unions are about much, much more than wages. They're about trying to bring some balance to a relationship in which the individual employee is at a decided disadvantage.

I spent many months working for a Chinese company in a Chinese building inside of a huge Chinese factory that was just one of many in a sprawling Chinese industrial area. Besides my presence, there was nothing Western about this gig.

What struck me most wasn't the willingness of the employees to work 12-hour days, 6 days per week. It wasn't the poverty that these employees lived in despite their worker's wages. It wasn't the thoroughly disgusting 'sanitation' conditions or food provided to these workers. It wasn't even the complete disregard that the management and my Chinese colleagues had for their safety (My colleagues were truly baffled and said, "I don't understand. If he gets hurt we will just get another worker. I can have 100 just like him here in the morning if you wish.")

No, what struck me most wasn't the commoditization of the workers by the company but rather the commodity views that the workers developed of themselves.

If you ever have the chance to work in an environment like that, you should try it. It was very enlightening.

As far as I can tell, unions are the only means that individuals have in order to avoid being treated as a commodity.

[Music in My Heart]

Just today I read a couple of different threads here on AN where nurses were lamenting the unethical and/or unprofessional behavior of doctors, CNAs, or colleagues.

In each case, the poster said words to the effect of, "but there's nothing I can really do about it... " Also in each case, other nurses have chimed in with very appropriate suggestions but then added the codicil, "But be looking for another job... have your resume updated... have some savings..."

How absolutely jacked up is that? Keep your mouth shut or your job is in jeopardy.

The government can't (and really shouldn't) protect people except in the most egregious cases (and even then, make sure you file within the statute of limitations... What, you didn't find out 'til afterwards? Sorry..."

Nope, solidarity with the rank and file, I say. A standard contract with predictable and reasonable compensation, I say. Contractually required due process, I say.