"Too many" nursing programs?

DawnCaprice · Jun 12, 2012

The AMA has been pretty good about controlling the number of residency slots and thus preventing a glut of doctors. Perhaps a little too good.
But what about all those poor premed students who are CALLED to be a doctor, who WANT IT IN THEIR HEARTS so much? But they couldn't pass O-chem and have a 2.0 GPA? They just want to be a doctor as soon as possible because they have two kids and don't really want to take statistics or retake any classes or sit on a wait list? They want to be a doctor RIGHT NOW!
Good news:

ITT-Tech will be opening a medical school. It will be 90% online, your clinical rotations will sub-Saharan Africa and North Korea. (*please note that not all your professors will be real doctors). You will receive your Associates in Medicine from ITT and be elegible through articulation agreements to enter DeVry's Bachelors of Medicine completion program. From there, you can enter into University of Phoenix's Masters of Medicine program.
Here's the best news: it will be affordable at only 250K/year. **Please note that defaulting on this loan gives ITT-Tech rights to your first born child and/or your right or left kidney (your choice!).
***In accordance with Federal Law, ITT is bound to reveal that its medical school is not accredited by the AMA and graduates will only be licensed to practice in North Korea and some sub-Saharan African countries.
**** The US Department Of State travel warnings state that all students who received the North Korean placement have not been allowed to leave North Korea. They are currently serving at the behest of the Glorious Leader.

I find this to be very offensive......I am a student at Breckinridge School of Nursing @ ITT Tech. You sound a bit too childish for my program!!!!

Stephalump · Jun 12, 2012

NETY!

And I'm not even a nurse, yet, much less a Crusty Old Bat!

I think this is some sort of record.

Once again, everyone is entitled to an opinion on various training methods and how they affect the industry. There are plenty of BSNs who look down on people who trained in community college. There are community college grads who look down on hospital diploma grads. And there will be many, many people who look down on for-profit tech school programs. It goes with the territory. If you're happy with your choice, that's fine, but you're missing the overall point by taking everything and acting accordingly.

♑ Capricorn ♑ · Jun 12, 2012

The thought of the market being flooded by all these new schools opening and graduates being turned out like items from a factory being processed and shipped off, is daunting. Am I concerned? Yes, a little. Mostly because we have always been told, or heard, or read that nursing is a secure field of work with plenty of opportunities and employment. Today, that might not be so. Is it the reason why I wanted to go into nursing? Certainly not. Things do change. And, I hope I will secure employment after graduation.

I don't have any problems with a BSN program, or ADN, or diploma programs. The issue I have is against schools that are pro-profit. They make it available to one and to all, and allow others to take the easy way out. Those types of schools have issues and their tuition and fees are atrocious. By example, they set a low standard. It is because people want things, yesterday, and are not willing to work for it the traditional way. I loathe that. But, that is just how I feel. I worked hard to get where I am. To cut in front of me by attending such a school is a slap in the face. :nono: :lol2: Honestly, its all about the bottom line with these kind of school. They will take your money but offer no promises of a future. Pathetic.

♑ Capricorn ♑ · Jun 12, 2012

And now that I am all fired up, I've got one more thing to say. :) Why look down on other traditional route programs? All three lead to the same thing. (The exception here is the pro-profit school who means more to me like a redheaded step child you hate of the group) Is it to say, "Oh, I'm better than you all, because I'm a BSN". Or, "I'm an ADN, diploma students are so terrible because they don't have a degree". Or, "I'm a diploma student, I have more clinical time than both the BSN or ADN combined, so I'm better than you both". :argue: No. What is the point in that? Other than acting childish and joking. Does anyone seriously feel that way? Huh? I don't get that, its mind-boggling to me. One is not any better than the other, in my opinion. I can see it on this board from time to time in posts, and I giggle to myself. :lol2: Its not about how you get there, but the fact that you did. I can understand one's pride for one's school, and I am proud of my school, but I don't go around flaunting, "I'm better because...this or that". Maybe I'm just misunderstanding it, I do not know. I don't judge others because they have this degree or not. I guess, to each their own. :)

DawnCaprice · Jun 12, 2012

Capricorn, why do you think that anyone who goes to a for profit school is jumping in line ahead of you? I have to take the same classes you do and I have to maintain at least an 80% in all my classes or I do not get to move ahead in the program. Do you realize that their are many private universities out there that are very prestigious to go to? Also, does your school promise you a future? if so, how can they do that? They are not the hiring people at hospitals and medical offices. There are no guarantees with any profession that you choose and that fact that students are worried about more nursing programs just baffles me. Every school I looked into made their program available to everyone. ALL schools have different criteria for acceptance. I had to meet certain criteria to be accepted in my school and because I got accepted doesn't mean that I have skipped in front of anyone else.

I hate to burst your bubble but in the real world, it is always about the bottom line with every school. If they can't make enough money via student loans, private payer, grants, taxes, etc. they will not survive. No school educated for free. Public schools get help from tax payers and alumni, boosters, etc.

DawnCaprice · Jun 12, 2012

Capricorn, I do not judge anyone by their school (unless they go to Univ of Florida and not Florida State, but that is another story Go Noles!! lol).

I am just proud of myself for being 44, married with 3 kids, working full-time and going to school full-time. I have wanted to be a nurse for as long as I can remember and I kept putting it off. I am thrilled to be in my program and learning tons!

Good luck to all regardless of what school you attend.

elkpark · Jun 12, 2012

But what about all those poor premed students who are CALLED to be a doctor, who WANT IT IN THEIR HEARTS so much? But they couldn't pass O-chem and have a 2.0 GPA?

:lol2: You know what happens to those individuals -- a lot of them post here about how they were pre-med but now they have seen the light and had a change of heart and realize that nursing is the right calling for them after all, and they want to know how they can get into a nursing program, preferably one that will get them through school and licensed ASAP. Oh, and by the way, they have a 2.0 GPA -- is that going to be a problem in getting into a nursing program???

Every time I see one of those posts, I can't help thinking to myself, and when, exactly, was it that you had this sudden epiphany and change of heart? Was it by any chance about the same time that you realized that you weren't going to be able to get into any legitimate med school with your GPA????? But then, I'm a jaded old cynic ...

TheCommuter, BSN, RN · Jun 12, 2012

My feelings on for-profit education at vocational schools are mixed. While they definitely serve a purpose, a higher-quality end result can be obtained at a more reasonable price at most community colleges or state universities.

However, for-profit schools are marketed to appeal to present-oriented, impulsive students who have difficulty with delaying gratification: "I can't go to school for two, three, or four years." "The other schools require too much testing." "What are my options as I see them today?"

We will use a culinary arts degree as an example. While the local community college offers this associate degree program at a very affordable cost, there are roadblocks that might hinder the underprepared student from getting to the end result in a reasonable amount of time.

This student who hopes to get into the culinary arts program at the community college has failed the placement exam, so they must complete a handful of remedial (a.k.a. developmental) reading and math classes before they are even allowed to take English comp or college algebra.

Remedial classes can add a year or more onto one's studies, depending on how far behind one's basic skills are. There might also be prerequisites that must be completed with a satisfactory grade such as food science, technical writing, or business applications. An unprepared student from a disadvantaged background might see these molehills as thunderous mountains and basically abandon the community college route.

However, the for-profit trade school is also offering a culinary arts degree without the red tape. For $10,000 more than it would cost at the local community college, this same underprepared student can start classes immediately with no remedial classes, prerequisites, entrance exams, and be able to finish in 12 months or less. What sounds more appealing to the person from the disadvantaged background? Years at a community college, or months at a trade school? "What are my options as I see them today?"

People wonder why anyone would choose this route, but all you need to do is walk one mile in the shoes of someone who views community colleges and universities as bureaucratic, foreign, and alien.

Stephalump · Jun 12, 2012

I think most people understand why people choose a for-profit school.

The problem lies in how people feel about those reasons -impulsive people who cannot get in a traditional school entering the field, competing for jobs, and in some people's opinions, lowering the quality of the workforce. This was pretty well demonstrated by the ITT Med School satire. The quality of the education is in question - many of these schools have never been accredited for a reason. And the predatory nature is my personal sticking point. These programs do not exist because we need them. They exist because they can get perpetually get people in thee doors and charge them outrageous rates by telling them how awesome the job market is and how qualified their school is and how much money nurses make. It's sick.

Of COURSE it's appealing to some students. And then a year later they're here on AN looking for advice because they were kicked out and out of 50,000 dollars or they can't find a job or they can't transfer anywhere or their wages are being garnished from student loans.

anonymousstudent · Jun 12, 2012

Why would anyone be concerned about too many nursing schools? If you are at the best school for you then don't worry about the others out there. If you are going to be the best nurse you can be, then don't worry about the other nurses trying to take your job.

I'm concerned and I have a right to be! I'm at a good CC with a good reputation. But there are so many crappy ADN programs out there turning out students who've had horrible clinical experience and just aren't ready that now every hospital system in my area has stopped hiring ADN's because they don't want to deal with new nurses trained by the nurse mill schools who just can't hack it.

Is my school part of that problem? Not with the wide variety of clinical experiences we get in the hospitals and a first time NCLEX pass rate in the 90%+. Does it matter? Nope. The hospitals here made a blanket policy so they don't even have to deal with students coming out of these crappy schools.

So yes, it affects me.

llg, PhD, RN · Jun 13, 2012

I'm concerned and I have a right to be! I'm at a good CC with a good reputation. But there are so many crappy ADN programs out there turning out students who've had horrible clinical experience and just aren't ready that now every hospital system in my area has stopped hiring ADN's because they don't want to deal with new nurses trained by the nurse mill schools who just can't hack it.
Is my school part of that problem? Not with the wide variety of clinical experiences we get in the hospitals and a first time NCLEX pass rate in the 90%+. Does it matter? Nope. The hospitals here made a blanket policy so they don't even have to deal with students coming out of these crappy schools.
So yes, it affects me.

That's the situation in my region. We've had some great graduates from some respectable community college programs. But the better hospitals are going "BSN only." In part, it's because of their Magnet journeys -- but they could handle that easily enough by just requiring BSN for promotions beyond the entry level. Part of the "BSN only" drive is simply being tired of dealing with the low quality graduates from some of the local for-profit schools. We are also considering dropping the ADN programs from being able to do clinical rotations here because of problems with those same for-profit schools. It's politically difficult to accept some ADN programs and not others: it's easier to just draw the line across the board and say "No ADN's." It's a shame because the better ADN programs lose out when they don't really deserve it.

Now, we hear that some of the for-profits are thinking of starting BSN programs. That just makes it all even messier. I wish those shoddy schools would just go away.

♑ Capricorn ♑ · Jun 14, 2012

Capricorn, why do you think that anyone who goes to a for profit school is jumping in line ahead of you? I have to take the same classes you do and I have to maintain at least an 80% in all my classes or I do not get to move ahead in the program. Do you realize that their are many private universities out there that are very prestigious to go to? Also, does your school promise you a future? if so, how can they do that? They are not the hiring people at hospitals and medical offices. There are no guarantees with any profession that you choose and that fact that students are worried about more nursing programs just baffles me. Every school I looked into made their program available to everyone. ALL schools have different criteria for acceptance. I had to meet certain criteria to be accepted in my school and because I got accepted doesn't mean that I have skipped in front of anyone else.
I hate to burst your bubble but in the real world, it is always about the bottom line with every school. If they can't make enough money via student loans, private payer, grants, taxes, etc. they will not survive. No school educated for free. Public schools get help from tax payers and alumni, boosters, etc.

I guess I didn't make myself clear. What I meant by for-profit are the ITT and Devry schools, no I am not bashing them. Not the traditional public or private 2 or 4 year universities and colleges. If you are attending an ITT or Devry "type" school, I apologize. But, this is only my opinion! I was of the understanding of these types of schools having a shady rep and a lack of credibility in their education. I am not attending this type of school nor have I been versed in its admission process and what is to be expected. But, the general opinion goes that the education may be subpar to those who'd attend a more traditional route.

It is of my understanding that these types of schools admit students into their programs with no foundation or their own foundation of pre-reqs that do not transfer between other colleges. Let alone their own nursing curriculum wouldn't transfer either. I personally do not find that acceptable. I also do not find acceptable the foregoing of not doing any type of pre-reqs and jumping straight into nursing education, with no backbone to support it. To me, that would be like skipping pre-med courses and the first two years of medical school and jumping right into a medical curriculum. To me, that just does not make sense! That, is what I mean by jumping ahead of other nursing students.

Yes, I do realize that higher education is in a sense for-profit, otherwise we'd all be attending school for free. No, my school does not promise employment. Does yours? I don't know of one school that does and really means it. Empty promises? Maybe. We all have the same chances as the next guy. Yes, every school is open to everyone but you totally misunderstood me on that too. I too, worked my booty off to get into nursing school. I had to jump through their hoops, bow to their feet, and complete everything that was expected of me to get in. And, I got in justly. I do realize that every school has different admission processes. It is of my understanding of these "for-profit" schools, that their admission process is more "simple" and easier to be admitted to, than it would be at a community college or 4 year university. Again, the "easy" acceptance and access of these schools, and going straight into nursing education, is what I meant about skipping ahead, too.

Dawn, I am not judging you or your school. I'm trying to explain what I meant in my post. I am proud of you too for attending school and for going after what you want. If you honestly think that I am judging, then, can you explain yourself for trying to twist my words and challenging my position?

Best of luck to you.