"Socialized medicine"

Kyriaka · Mar 14, 2005

Gall Bladder surgery isn't considered vital (unless you are the one suffering).
_____________
But it can be.
Mine burst.
Something elective can easily turn ugly.

ArwenEvenstar · Mar 14, 2005

hope i am not "flamed" :angryfire for posting these links. :rolleyes: :)

there is no perfect healthcare system. and i realize that articles about all the problems with the us system could be posted too. (go for it! :chuckle )

there are no easy answers to this complex issue. and what works in one country may or may not work in another country.

but despite the problems with our us system, i still prefer it.

***patients told to go to us

november 25, 2004

http://cnews.canoe.ca/cnews/canada/2004/11/25/730737.html

article excerpt:

windsor, ontario: doctor albert schumacher believes it's his ethical and moral responsibility to tell patients they can cross the border for faster tests. the president of the canadian medical association said the country's doctors have no choice when waiting times get unhealthy for their patients....

"right now physicians scramble to get their patients the treatment they need," schumacher said. "getting it in a timely way is virtually impossible."

in a speech to the toronto board of trade yesterday, schumacher said the shortage of health professionals and the inability to access timely care for patients is undermining confidence in the system.

**canadian medical association journal,

waiting lists for healthcare, a necessary evil?

richard f. davies, md, phd

link for article:

http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/201/300/cdn_medical_association/cmaj/vol-160/issue-10/1469.htm

article excerpt:

in addition to their costs to the system, one must consider the costs of waiting lists to patients. protracted treatment delays increase mortality and morbidity rates. in the ontario example,171 patients died while

waiting for cabg, 121 were removed from the list permanently because they had become medically unfit for surgery, 211 were taken off the list temporarily (the usual reason for this is medical instability, in which case patients are often reinstated in a higher urgency category), 259 were removed from the list for unspecified reasons and 44 left the province and underwent cabg elsewhere.

***need surgery? here's how long you'll wait. (calgary herald)

link for article: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/wait.html

article excerpt:

susan warner swallows addictive painkillers every day to ease the crippling pain she endures waiting for knee-replacement surgery.

one of her knees gave out in october and the calgary woman has been waiting for the surgery since. however, warner, 51, is lost in a lineup for the operation at the rockyview general hospital that she says could last 18 months.

"it's inhuman. the quality of my life is horrible and there's absolutely nothing i can do about it," she said tuesday.

waiting lists are crippling canada's health-care system and frustrating patients and doctors alike. the canadian medical association released a 10-point prescription on tuesday that targets waiting lists for surgery and diagnostic procedures like mris and ct scans.....

there are about 25,000 calgarians waiting for surgery or scans at the city's four major hospitals. and the calgary health region estimates waiting times for surgery are growing at an astronomical rate of 12 to 18 per cent every year.

alberta health's website says waiting times in calgary are as follows:

- 62 weeks for a hip replacement at peter lougheed centre;

- 62 weeks for general surgery at rocky- view general hospital;

- 30 weeks for mri scans at foothills medical centre;

- 54 weeks for knee replacement surgery at rockyview general hospital;

- 11 weeks for cardiac surgery at foothills medical centre.

for warner, the wait has come with a heavy price. she says she has become addicted to painkillers that are a daily staple to help her hobble through her workday....

(note: you can check current wait times for many procudures at the alberta health web site that is mentioned in this article.) the link is: http://www.health.gov.ab.ca/waitlist/waitlistdata.jsp

***canada's health system dream turns to nightmare

michael arnold glueck, m.d., and robert j. cihak, m.d.

june 9, 2004

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/6/9/113918.shtml

article excerpt:

....comparing canada with other industrialized countries in the organization for economic cooperation and development (oecd) that provide universal access to health care, a study released by the fraser institute in may revealed that canada spends more on its system than other nations while ranking among the lowest in several key indicators, such as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes.

the study identifies one of the major reasons for this discrepancy. unlike other countries in the study that outperformed canada - such as sweden, japan, australia, and france - canada outlaws virtually all private health care. if the government says it provides a medical service, it's illegal for a canadian citizen to pay for and get the service privately. in practice, this means a patient must linger in line for hospital treatment - an average of 17.7 weeks in 2003, according to an annual survey on hospital waiting list published by the fraser institute.

one of the reasons canadians are slow to acknowledge the problems with their system is that general practitioners have been relatively easy to access and reasonably efficient at providing everyday services for common complaints, such as colds, sprains, aches and pains.

note: for more info on private health care being illegal in most of canada, see this article from the canadian medical association journal. it's complex...

"the illegality of private health care in canada", link: http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/6/825

tridil2000, MSN, RN · Mar 14, 2005

I am interested in your opinions about introducing a national healthcare system in the United States. What do you think about introducing free basic packet of healthcare services (e.g. emergency services and annual medical, eye, dental exams)? Do you know anything about national healthcare systems existing in other countries such as Sweden and Germany?
I would also be happy to get some information on this issue from abroad. Grushenka

op,

trust me, i've been a nurse for 18 years and we already have socialized medicine, we just don't call it that.

call you dr tomorrow and try to get an appointment. you will wait at least a week to be seen and IF you get in, you'll wait an hour or more to be seen. the office may even tell you that if you can't wait to go to the er... where you'll have a wait that can give any canadian er wait, a run for the money.

see, if you do have insurance, once you pick a primary dr, they are paid a certain amount for the year from the insurance company. now if your primary sees you once or 15 times a year, he or she still gets paid the same, so they have no incentive to actually see you and help you.

plus, there's this entire working uninsured class that is growing exponentially and multiplying like rabbits in your local er waiting rooms, where cash isn't required to be seen.

please, it's an awful situation. i can't imagine it being much worse if we just went ahead and called the duck a duck already!

fergus51 · Mar 14, 2005

op,
trust me, i've been a nurse for 18 years and we already have socialized medicine, we just don't call it that.

Amen to that! The systems really aren't so different. The difference is in administration and cost.

fergus51 · Mar 14, 2005

***canada's health system dream turns to nightmare
michael arnold glueck, m.d., and robert j. cihak, m.d.
june 9, 2004
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/6/9/113918.shtml
article excerpt:
....comparing canada with other industrialized countries in the organization for economic cooperation and development (oecd) that provide universal access to health care, a study released by the fraser institute in may revealed that canada spends more on its system than other nations while ranking among the lowest in several key indicators, such as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes.
the study identifies one of the major reasons for this discrepancy. unlike other countries in the study that outperformed canada - such as sweden, japan, australia, and france - canada outlaws virtually all private health care. if the government says it provides a medical service, it's illegal for a canadian citizen to pay for and get the service privately. in practice, this means a patient must linger in line for hospital treatment - an average of 17.7 weeks in 2003, according to an annual survey on hospital waiting list published by the fraser institute.
one of the reasons canadians are slow to acknowledge the problems with their system is that general practitioners have been relatively easy to access and reasonably efficient at providing everyday services for common complaints, such as colds, sprains, aches and pains.
note: for more info on private health care being illegal in most of canada, see this article from the canadian medical association journal. it's complex...
"the illegality of private health care in canada", link: http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/6/825

the fraser institute is well known as a right wing think tank in canada. the interesting thing about that article is that it doesn't mention the us as outperforming canada does it? the countries that outperform us all have some sort of universal or socialized healthcare. our system could improve by trying to see what aspects of those countries' systems might work for us.

InfRN · Mar 14, 2005

The OP has asked for international responses .... here comes one from Scandinavia.

Prefixing anything as "socialized" in the US is asking for a major migraine and pretty much dooms any moderate and informed discussion from the start.

Perhaps a more appropriate term is the widely used apolitical "Universal Healthcare", which implies all individuals, regardless of social class or finances, are entitled to the exact same high standards of medical services via a public health insurance scheme.

As far as I am aware, The US of A is the only western industrialized nation that doesn't have Universal healthcare, but please don't hesitate to correct me if I am wrong.

I'm way too tired after working all night to be posting coherently right now, so I will have to return after a few hours sleep, when I will gladly share any and all information about the healthcare system in Sweden.

As a parting aside, all our pats. get pillows, blankets, 3 square meals plus snacks and a all day coffee/tea buffet with assorted swedish coffee breads, heck they get socks and jammies and toothpaste/brushes, lypsyl, too ....... you name it ..... they can even get stemcell transplants if the need be.

More later since I'm fading fast here ..... ZZzZZzzz

InfRN

Sweden

gwenith, BSN, RN · Mar 14, 2005

Thank-you Ifnrn you have made some good points and yes the OP did ask specifically for information from other countries.

I have tried before to explain how the Australian system works as it is widely accpeted as a good (not perfect) but good workable system. Unfortunately a there are always those who want to speak up about thier own misconceptions about how universal health care of public health care systems work.

One thing I have noticed though is the amount of public health information and initiatives in Australia compared to America and I think that is because when the goverment is footing the bill for health care it suddenly becomes VERY interested in keeping the population healthy.

InfRN · Mar 14, 2005

In a serious, balanced and honest discussion of potentially controversial issues, I always find it beneficial to start out by examining the facts available.This helps me avoid speculation or opinions based on hearsay.

A comprehensive, factual and nonpolitical report regarding Universal Healthcare can be found here, where the Wikopedia entry (4th item down) has the most info:

http://www.answers.com/topic/publicly-funded-medicine

This link will bring you to a comparative analysis of the Canadian and American health care systems:

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Canadian+and+American+health+care+systems+compared&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1

Perhaps some members here might find the above enlightening. Copy%20of%20wink.gif

InfRN

expatnurse · Mar 14, 2005

I am interested in your opinions about introducing a national healthcare system in the United States. What do you think about introducing free basic packet of healthcare services (e.g. emergency services and annual medical, eye, dental exams)? Do you know anything about national healthcare systems existing in other countries such as Sweden and Germany?
I would also be happy to get some information on this issue from abroad. Grushenka

I am writting from the point of view of both systems. I must say that I am very grateful for the fact I was born in the USA with the medical tech. we have or I would not be alive today. I am also grateful that my mother etc. have healthcare that is USA. However I feel that we do need to do something about the problem of people who are unisured. I do believe now, after having lived in England for 6 years that everyone should receive a basic level of care!! From what I can see the solical systems are better at preventive med. while in the US we are better at treating the cause after the damage has been done. I am very glad to see that others have wrote in the explain the high tax and waiting lists that are encountered. The only country I have lived where social med. completely work was in Germany bear in mind they are not wasteful and everything is streamlined!! And it is also tax and also a private system paided by you with your work so therefore it is really a mix of both. I fear that if the US were to adopt social med. we would get what the US miltary have which in my view having been a miltary spouse is not worth it. The last point to consider is the fact that most of these countries with social med. are more densly populated than the US. It works by the gateway of a GP(primary dr.) most can walk to theirs . In the US we are to spread out.

ArwenEvenstar · Mar 14, 2005

The Fraser Institute is well known as a right wing think tank in Canada. The interesting thing about that article is that it doesn't mention the US as outperforming Canada does it? The countries that outperform us all have some sort of universal or socialized healthcare. Our system could improve by trying to see what aspects of those countries' systems might work for us.

Fergus51: Uh...read the original article/study carefully please! THIS article/study is only comparing "apples to apples". It is only comparing nations that HAVE univeral healthcare/socialized medicine. (The USA does not have it so they are not part of the study!) They are comparing Canada to other nations with universal healthcare and unfortunetly, Canada's system has some serious problems in comparison.

Hey you Australian posters - I do like your system much better that the Canadian system. The two teir aspect of it...the fact you can LEGALLY pay for private care or pay for a private health insurance policy. This i like! Perhaps the US should look more to your Australian system when considering a switch to universal healthcare.

fergus51 · Mar 14, 2005

Fergus51: Uh...read the original article/study carefully please! THIS article/study is only comparing "apples to apples". It is only comparing nations that HAVE univeral healthcare/socialized medicine. (The USA does not have it so they are not part of the study!) They are comparing Canada to other nations with universal healthcare and unfortunetly, Canada's system has some serious problems in comparison.
.

That was my point :chuckle. I'm sorry, I'm sleepy and unclear sometimes :) You can't use an article that doesn't discuss the differences between Canada and the US to discuss the differences between Canada and the US. The outperforming countries discussed were all countries with universal systems. That's why I said Canada could look to those other countries to see what we could use.

IMO, the discussion doesn't matter. The US will NEVER institute any kind of universal or socialized or single payer system. Ever. It just isn't gonna happen.

fergus51 · Mar 14, 2005

Thanks for the link InfRN. It had a lot of common sense in it and I found myself nodding while reading it, especially the part about the role of poverty and health in America and the role of health care in influencing politics in Canada:) Americans would never adopt a system like Canada has and Canadians are generally terrified of having their system Americanized. To each his own:)