As an offshoot to the News article about nursing education, an opinion was brought to the board that LPNs are not adequately prepared to care for patients, and that their education is not strenuous like an RN program is. Having been in the field for awhile, what is your opinion on the differences between LPNs and RNs, other than the legally different aspects (LPNs cannot do initial assessments or IVs in my state for instance)
I'm not looking to start trouble, but rather discuss the topic in an area other than an unrelated thread.
Differences in LPNs vs RNs (educationally, functionally, intellectually)
Best way to combat any possible negatives of the above
Advice for an LPN student (who is too far through her program to just throw it out and start over in an RN program - already applied for an LPN to RN program starting Jan 2010)
Should I really expect to run into attitudes in the workplace about my not being worthwhile as an employee and a care provider because I chose the path that I have? How do you handle it if you do?
There is a local small rural hospital that pays incredibly well for LPNs right out of school and who has been trying very hard to recruit us during clinicals... am I going to be inequipped to care for patients there because of my education? I would never want to get into a situation where patient care was compromised because my education was lacking somehow...
Yes, lol, And I still feel that way. And my level of skill anywere I go seems to be, everything and Aid does, and half of what an RN does. Call me a CNA with better pay, or a RN with poor pay. Lets make it official, push some classes and have people test. Or demote my title. Make the word Nurse mean more.
And ice out the incumbant LPNs? Are you kidding?? How insulting!:angryfire:o
Not toss us out. Up the training, make PN's become RN's, up the training on CNA as well. Have two levels of well trained persons. How many people see CNA's doing lpn work, and lpn's doing rn work? I see it alot.
And hey, if they leave it all the same I will not be bothered either. I am just expressing an opinion based on the post.
My long term worry is, what role does an LPN have, that is not slowly being replaced?
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
one thing i can say...if the lpn role equates to the role of a cna, even with the additional knowledge that we have acquired, and have been allowed to be licensed all of this time, then, this shows how little the licensing boards and powers that be have felt about the patients whose care is being rendered by us have thought of their clients all along.
i was listening to obama's speech last night and one of the things that he seemed to alude to is everyone stepping to the plate to improve themselves. i keenly noticed that while, yes, he encouraged college, but he also strongly advocated for vocational and technical training. he did not exclude anyone. i took this to mean that we can all contribute to the whole in a positive, meaningful way. many of the allied health titles, may it be lpn, respiratory therapist/assistants, even medical assistants and phlebotomists (not sure about cnas, but i am sure there is something out there) have some sort of continuing education that keep them up to par in their practice. remaining current and being proponents for the inclusion of all titles is a positive to me.
my issue is this, and i have said this several times. there is enough at the table for all to partake. it may very well be that the lpn title was not well thought out. i remember reading some older books on nursing history that stated some of why even back then, the rns felt that their role was diminished by the inclusion of the lpn. at that time, their arguement was that we wear white as well, and the only difference was the light blue stip in our caps versus their dark stip. otherwise, who knew the difference, they felt. now, it may be very true that there should be a smoother transition from lpn to rn, without the red tape, but right now, it is not. we all exist here. i believe that if it were not for the lpn position, many would be even further limited in growth. this is not to say that anyone should remain an lpn if their heart is not in it...for for it, if your heart screams that you should. but, to say "get rid of them" is too insensitive. these are working people. maybe get rid of the bad apples; and that includes cnas, lpns, rns. but, because these titles do exist, then, they should make it work. the job duties do not have to necessarily overlap...but even the cna role and the licensed nurse (lpn or rn) overlaps. we were taught adls in our programs, turning, positioning, lifting, feeding, etc... get rid of one may mean that the rn is stuck with it all. now, many rns say that they would rather get a chance to see their patients while bathing. it gives them a chance to interact with them. but, because of the other distractions, this does not always happen, anyhow. so, rather than 'get rid of' the allied health folks, define the roles and get it overwith until there is a smooth transition (if it can ever happen) from lpn to rn.
before nursing became a profession, caretakers did on the job training with not much formal education to do the job. they had monks, prostitutes, less science in anatomy to prove theories, etc...and the job was still done. florence did not have a ventilator, she walked around with a lamp. we now have modern technology, but the human will still get sick, and we still need someone to care for them.
i don't see how or why, since these titles do, in fact, currently exist, state that mundane medication administration that is not so complex, dressings, bathing, etc, can be assigned for an lpn, with the expectation (due to the lpn training in the disease processes) that she report abnormals to an rn. why can't an rn do the more complicated care, since she does have the theory and understanding for further intervention? am i wrong, here, or nuts?
just to show how much the mundane can just leap out and bite us, the state made an unannounced visit to our job today. they were crawling around like roaches. the notes were up to par (at least the ones that they saw), the care was not questioned, but we got cited because the controls for point of care were not updated. who does that? the pca/cnas! who would have thought that with all of the fancy tricks that nurses can do, that they were looking for something very basic? this is why we cannot ignore anyone on our team that is worth their salt! now maybe, if the cna felt that what she was assigned to do was important, she would have had more incentive to keep it up. the paperwork showed it was not done in over a month! but, who got in trouble?? the rn in charge. sticking together when there is some help around is better than slitting the other's throat and then being stuck having to do it all yourself. there will be moments, due to all of the additional responsibilities, that the small things are left undone and that can be the thing to hang us all.
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
Not toss us out. Up the training, make PN's become RN's, up the training on CNA as well. Have two levels of well trained persons. How many people see CNA's doing lpn work, and lpn's doing rn work? I see it alot.
And hey, if they leave it all the same I will not be bothered either. I am just expressing an opinion based on the post.
My long term worry is, what role does an LPN have, that is not slowly being replaced?
Now, that, I can understand. They are certifying CNAs to administer medications under certain circumstances, dressings, foley insertion, etc... and their actions, whether positive or negative, affect the RN; and most times, she is not under their necks watching what they are doing, either, because she has too many other things to do. Nurses asking CNAs and sneakily training them to do tube feedings and even spiking and cutting off their IVs...I can go on and on...
Specializes in acute rehab, med surg, LTC, peds, home c.
I believe I was talking to an RN when I said that but nobody noticed. I don't care who you are, if you don't have the knowledge behind what you are doing than you are just going through the motions. I wasn't calling LPNs monkeys.
I teach in an LVN (LPN) program in Texas. OUr LVN's can do pretty much anything-alot depends on the facility. We teach IV meds, how to do pushes, etc. Some local hospitals have LVN's doing meds via central line. LVN's are allowed to do focused assessments, but not choose nusing diagnosis. Some facilities they can start blood, but but not in most. I wish everyone could go to LVN school then transition into RN school. I did and I was better prepared to learn to supervise as an RN.
Don't give up. LVN (PN) is a great idea. I know many LVN's I would rather have care for me than some RN's. Alot depends on caring. A person who cares is better at their job.
I too am in LPN school and do not think my niche is LTC. I plan to go on to RN school because my options will be much greater. I look at it as LPN just being the first part..I can work as an LPN while attending school part time for my RN. That way I will still be a nurse. LPN's have options in clinics, and offices as well. Don't sell the LPN short I have worked with many (being a CNA) that have great knowledge and are terrific at what they do!!!
This is the way I see it...... We as healthcare providers are ALL EQUAL in the fact that the main purpose is care, help and treat our pts. No matter what the tasks may be or allowed. We all work as a team, from CNA's all the way to the Case managers to Doctors etc...., we are all there for the same purpose. It bothers me that there are so many instances that some one won't or Can't do various tasks of caring for the pt. I have experienced this in many levels. Don't get me wrong, qualifications. training and knowledge denotes what each of us are allowed to do "within our Scopes" But for some one to say that an RN wont clean BM or change a bed because it is not their job is obsurd. It has been told by many elders that a LVN first.. makes a GREAT RN due to the fact that they have more pt care skills instead of Massive careplans to write. Going straight for an RN there is not as many clinical hours and some feel they are not as prepared to Charge right out of school. Some facilties here were I live, the "Nurse" RN or LVN do TOTAL care for the pt's they are assigned. They facility allows them to become educated, trained and checked off.
The nurse shortage is a sad situation and to eliminate a whole degree is just ignorant.
It's a shame it gets to this, and again why nurses will never be as strong as the AMA, even though there are so many more of us!
If all programs were the same, we'd have the same results. They aren't.
If all Nurses regardless of their levels worked the same and good patient care resulted, there would be no argument. But it's not.
When I say that I think all experience LPNs should be grandfathered in as RNs I truly believe it. I am sorry, I have heard about the schools here and am sick that someone's grandmother, grandfather, mother, father, will be taken care of by substandard graduates of some of these LPN programs-some will get licenses and had minimal practice, it will be on someone's family member with no one to show them.
My other fear is that while those who have been LPNs and have been functional, what happens when you aren't marketable? Someone decides that LPNs won't do it? They reduced your pay, or as in NJ limit your practice. Then what? That ADN, BSN and whatever other degree does let you see into the world that is running these big businesses we call a hospital. Without the letters you have a snowball's chance in he$$ to make things better for yourself or your fellows! Letters only understand letters.
Its true I had BSN nurses who had never spiked a bag, never inserted a foley, never packed a wound! I was a clinical technician working with several of these nurses and helped them through! Three years later that nurse is making about $25,000 more than I am! Skills can be practiced and learned-anyone can do them. That degree, and the knowledge it implies is priceless in everybody's eyes!
Whatever you all do it is your perogative. Not all of us want you to be different, or think you are less if you are not like "us". Many of us just want equality and fairness for all, and see education and standardization as the way to do it and protect your rights from corporate greed. No insult meant to your accomplishments or abilities as a nurse.
Been an LPN for 4 years now and it has NEVER been said to me, explicitly OR implicitly, that I am not a real nurse, nor that there is no place for me. In every capacity in which I've worked, nurses are nurses no matter how many letters are behind our names.
In my area, LPNs are pretty much used everywhere except in the hospitals; they are also limited in how far they can go in management.
It does seem as though hospitals are phasing us out, this is true; however, if there is an effort to get rid of us altogether, it will take years and years for it to actually happen.
Every RN I have talked to who worked as an LPN and bridged over has told me that the first year is when the most intense clinical work is done and the second year is much less intense.
although i am quick to defend LPN's, i must say it does really matter how you were taught and the experience you get in school and more importantly, once you are out of school. I was fortunate. Now i live in a bigger city and i am sorry to admit that i noticed the quality of nurses is much different. It seems that the job has become about passing out pills and doing treatments. i noticed some of the newer, younger students don't seem vested in caring for the whole patient and thinking critically. I noticed many are not prepared to handle more acute care patients..I think it has to do with going to a good nursing school, where you live to go to a good school, and the experience you get once you are out in the "real" world.
So with that said..those of you complaing about "LPN's" need to stop and think about all nurses and not just "LPN's" if you don't like how they do things, then SO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...!!! NUTURE THEM, HELP THEM LEARN!! instead of separating yourselves..Make it all about money and degrees all you want but the bottom line is: patient care comes first we all need to work together to make sure our patients get the best care possible.
sounds sappy i know..but i hate this thread. i am going to try and stay out of it now. people are getting on my nerves...lol
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systoly
1,756 Posts
While I've seen good points made from either side of the fence, there's one thing that everyone shares - PASSION