"Fired for NO Reason"

[Ruby Vee]

we often see threads with the title "fired for no reason," or "new grad harassed and fired" or something to that effect. and i always feel at least a little sympathy for the individual involved, if only because i can clearly see by reading between the lines of their self-justifying post that there was a reason for their termination, even if they just don't get it. (there are always a few posts every year from a new grad who is convinced that the reason she's not getting along with her co-workers is that she's just so beautiful they're all jealous, that crowds of mean people are following her around, that she's so wonderful she's going to rock the er or icu or nicu or or and no one sees her wonderfulness clearly, or that some mean, tired, old nurse who ought to retire and get out of the way is targeting her for no good reason.)

i worked with a new grad who was recently terminated for, as she puts it, totally bogus reasons. evidently seeing mine as a sympathetic ear, she went on and on and on about how unfair it was that management expected her to get her act together and actually understand what was going on with her patients. "i've got the time management thing down pat," she said. "i don't know what else they want. they're just picking on me for no good reason." i liked sal, i really did. she was interesting and entertaining and really, really nice. she was also smart, hard-working (when she was at work) and well-educated. but she didn't study outside of work, and really didn't understand what was going on with her patients. i participated in several meetings with her in which it was pointed out that it's not enough to do the tasks, you have to understand why you're doing them. it's not enough to draw the labs. you have to understand what the results mean and then address them. for instance, if the inr is 9, it might explain the nosebleed, the cherry red urine and the fact that the hemoglobin is now 6. giving the coumadin at 6pm as scheduled is not a good thing, even if you gave it right on time and were able to explain to the patient that "it's a blood thinner." i could go on and on.

i got a call from sal today, complaining that she knows she's blackballed for no good reason because she just can't get another job. she wanted me to give her a reference. did she just not get it?

all you new grads out there who are convinced that you're being picked on for no reason, that your more experienced colleagues are just out to get you, and that you're being unfairly targeting, harassed, or picked on, hear this: it may be something you're doing (or not doing) and all those "mean people" are trying to explain it to you so you catch on, learn your job and succeed. we all tried over and over with sal, and she still doesn't get it. are you guilty of the same thing? if your preceptor says you lack critical thinking skills, do you take it to heart, think about it and learn from it? or are you convinced that the entire issue is that she's jealous of your extreme good looks? if your charge nurse charges you with a deficit in your time management skills do you spend time figuring out where you could speed things up a bit? or do you dismiss her as a tired old dog who can't learn a new trick and ought to retire anyway? are you taking to heart and benefitting from any negative feedback you're getting, however poorly given it is? or are you obsessing about how "mean" that nurse was to you and totally overlooking the message?

i wish sal would have "gotten it." she would have been delightful to work with if she had. but right now she's focused on badmouthing her preceptors and the charge nurse, and she still doesn't understand what she did wrong. don't make the same mistakes.

[whitedoginwi]

Hi All!! Igeuss after reading this year-ong series of posts, I needed to add my two sense worth:twocents:. So here it goes. I understand that there are many new grads that, shall I say, not the brightest light in the world. But many of us are great. But many of us are not given the chance.

I am a new grad and I have found at least ten reasons why new grads are not hired. Truly some new grads sohould never have made it out of nursing school. They kiss ass or wiggle ass to get through school. Some new grads come from prgrams where clinical thinking skills are not stressed. If you can do this,that or the next thing in the way of skills,they graduate.

I believe that new grads reflect the program that they graduate from. If the program is good and stressess clinical thinking skills, then the new grad should have clinical thinking skills. Although this is not always so, some are just slow on the uptake. The program I graduated from required us to be able to think. To look at a situation, analyze the situation and make a plan and follow through with that plan. Good nurse preceptors are required also. I have met many a expienced nurse that didn't know things or had forgotten things.

I ask experienced nurses to think back to the days when you were a new grad. Did you have all the skills and knowledge that were required to do the job? I probably doubt it. Nursing is a giant leaning curve.Lots more learning in the first couple of years and then in later years teaching those same skills and knowledge the new nurses.

Not all new nurses are good. Give us all a chance. Help those that are struggle, teach those that are learning, have patience, be the great caregiver that drives many of us to the nursing career. Don't stand by and wait for a new grad to fail, halt in mid stream. If you see a problem, try to help, sugest some reading or further research. If the help is rebuffed or they just don't catch it, Try again. If they still don't get it or aren't making an attempt, then fire their sorry butt. Make sure they know why they are being fired. People can't not learn from their mistakes if they don't know what the mistake is. Remember not every learns in the same way. Subtle works for some and other need to be hit over the head once or twice (well not really but you know what I mean).

Most of I would like to add, just don't judge us all the same. Be nice to new grads and to each other. You never know when one of them will be your nurse in your old age!!!!

[leslie :-D]

Leslie, I agree with much of what "eriksoln" said. There can be "slow learners" in any profession, but it is the job of educators and preceptors to take the new grad from where they are to where they need to be. Obviously the person has enough sense to make it through nursing school and enough sense to get hired. A struggling person is most often a sign that the educator/preceptor isn't doing their job. Most people can be taught, if given plenty of instruction and patience. Unfortunately, mean co-workers (and even preceptors) do exist. People don't need a reason to be mean to the new grads, sometimes it just happens. Despite how hard they may work, and even if they are very intelligent and hard working, they may be seen as a threat. (or who knows why people may treat them badly) I've heard many times that "nurses eat their young" I didn't want to believe it, but you know what? sometimes it is very true.

i don't know about you romansten, but having enough sense to make it through nsg school and get hired, is not indicative of becoming an excellent nurse.

i graduated w/folks who scared the daylights out of me...i just couldn't imagine these folks working as nurses.

in ruby's opening and subsequent posts, it was clear to me that this new grad was drowning...

despite the support, patience and repeated chances.

for whatever reason she wasn't getting it, it doesn't sound like it was the different preceptors this new nurse had.

that said, there ARE horrible preceptors...

just as there are horrible preceptees.

i've 'known' ruby long enough to only grow in my admiration and respect for her as a person and a nurse.

she.just.didn't.get.it.

it happens.

leslie

[a-jean]

:nurse:I have been a nurse for 36 years. Nurse's do get fired for no reason

Plus employers will stuff files with write-ups that state refused to

sign. THERE WAS A NURSE WHO WORKED IN FRIDAY HARBOR

SHE FOUND A SCHEDULE ON THE FLOOR IN THE DOOR OF A ROOM WHERE SHE WAS CHARTING . PICKED IT UP SHOWED IT TO ANOTHER NURSE ASKED IF THEY SAW ANYONE AND HE SAID NO. 3 DAYS LATER THAT NURSE WAS WRITTEN UP BECAUSE BY SHOWING THE SCHEDULE TO ANOTHER NURSE THE NURSE SHE SHOWED IT TO. HE BECAME VERY UPESET BECAUSE HIS TIME WAS CUT AND SHE NEW SHE WOULD UPSET HIM. THIS WAS THE WRITE UP THEN BECAUSE SHE ASKED THIS NURSE ABOUT IT. HE REPORT HER SHE GOT 3 DAYS NO PAY & THEN FIRED. WITH A THANK YOU OF THE FINE SERVICE SHE GAVE ICC.

[a-jean]

:nurse:i have been a nurse for 36 years. Nurse's do get fired for no reason

plus employers will stuff files with write-ups that state refused to

sign. There was a nurse who worked in friday harbor

she found a schedule on the floor in the door of a room where she was charting . Picked it up showed it to another nurse asked if they saw anyone and he said no. 3 days later that nurse was written up because by showing the schedule to another nurse the nurse she showed it to. He became very upeset because his time was cut and she new she would upset him. This was the write up then because she asked this nurse about it. He report her she got 3 days no pay & then fired. With a thank you of the fine service she gave icc.

the nurse worked there for 4 years family memebers & other staff couldnt believe it. This happen dec. 1 2009.

[nursel56]

Leslie, I agree with much of what "eriksoln" said. There can be "slow learners" in any profession, but it is the job of educators and preceptors to take the new grad from where they are to where they need to be. Obviously the person has enough sense to make it through nursing school and enough sense to get hired. A struggling person is most often a sign that the educator/preceptor isn't doing their job. Most people can be taught, if given plenty of instruction and patience. Unfortunately, mean co-workers (and even preceptors) do exist. People don't need a reason to be mean to the new grads, sometimes it just happens. Despite how hard they may work, and even if they are very intelligent and hard working, they may be seen as a threat. (or who knows why people may treat them badly) I've heard many times that "nurses eat their young" I didn't want to believe it, but you know what? sometimes it is very true.

So now it's a long, open-ended process in which the responsibility for a new grad's performance is laid at the feet of the preceptor? If true, it would certainly represent a shift in attitude from what I experienced. I guess now hospitals have a lot more resources than they used to for "plenty of instruction and patience". Also, if a struggling new grad is "most often a sign that the preceptor isn't doing their job" -- what if a really dynamite preceptor happens to get 2 preceptees in a row that aren't performing well after lots of instruction and patience? Should she then hang her head in shame?

I don't know. The hospital is paying you to orient for a period of time where they are essentially losing money- I kind of looked at it like the sooner I can contribute and be an asset to the team, the better.

[romansten9]

"I still see someone who is trying to blame educators and preceptors for the problems new grads are having. The fact that someone had enough book knowledge to make it through school and pass their boards does not mean that they actually "get it" or that they ever will. Seems as though you have issues with preceptors. Rough orientation perhaps? If that's the case, please think back upon what YOU might have contributed to the problem. "

I am a preceptor myself. I don't have a problem with preceptors that try to guide a new employee along with patience and understanding. I do have a problem with preceptors that try to fit all new employees into the same mold, or preceptors that think that "everyone else only needed 3 weeks to figure everything out, so if it takes 4 weeks for some, they must be complete idiots and we should just fire them immediately" Yes, there is a point when it is clear that some nurses will never seem to "get it" I have a problem with those preceptors that are not good educators, are lazy or just plain mean people for whatever reason. I have no problem with preceptors that do their job faithfully and know how to adapt to an individual's learning needs. I have no problem with preceptors that eventually "give up" if its getting nowhere. I do think that preceptors need to at least give an effort.

[daeanaira]

I have only been a nurse a couple of years. However, I agree completely with this post. After one year on the floor, I was asked to start precepting new grads. I promptly declined. I am a direct person. When I make mistakes, I fully expect people to be straightforward and tell me so that I won't do the same thing again. Also, if I am unsure of something, I immediately ask someone who would know. No guessing games for me. However, most people can't take or understand constructive criticism. No way do I want my license on the line for someone who doesn't understand basic lab values. It's unacceptable.

I work in an ICU. I don't know about elsewhere, but we have a nursing shortage (just like I am told the rest of the nation does). My experience thus far is that it takes A LOT for a person to be fired. Since I have been there, only 3 people have been fired. The circumstance involving the dismissals were all severe. One NG managed to (somehow) give a PO liquid med through an A-line. One NG went into a room to assist a MD with a chest tube removal and put on a mask that she had drawn a member on. One experienced floor nurse (who recently transferred from MS to ICU) made several mistakes including double filling a PD pts abdomen, spiking a bag of vanc where insulin should be hanging, repeatedly ignored a MD's free water order until the MD actually wrote an order for someone to write her up, etc. etc. I feel that if someone is getting fired and is clueless as to why, then it's doubly tragic. They most likely did something grossly wrong or were repeatedly committing the same error AND they don't have the mental capacity to realize it. That is scary.

[whitedoginwi]

I guess I need to clarify my point. There are good and bad nurses, there are good and bad nursing schools, there are good and bad nurse preceptors, and there are good and bad place to work. Nursing is a hot career. Everybody is going into nursing. Nursing is also a tough career. It requires a lot of knowledge and alot of just who you are to be a good nurse. No nursing schools are solely responsible for bad nurses or "nurse who just don't get it" nor are nurse preceptors. It is the whole lot feeding into the problem. Many nursing schools take any person who can pass abre acedemic requirements. What is they say "a nurse who passes with a 70% is still a nurse" maybe we need to change that kind of thinking. No book smarts don't always make a good nurse, but a person without book smarts can be danger (one post wrote about a new nurse not knowing the significance of a high INR). A person who can relate to people is no good without clinical descion making skills or book smarts.

There are many a nurse that I have worked with that should not be a nurse preceptor. They lack the knowledge and skills (including teaching skills) to be good nurse preceptor. Other I have met are great nurse preceptors and they themselves are jus able to allowed to be preceptors.

I guess what I am trying say is the problem is profession wide problem. The nursing school and educators need to be more concerned about the quality of the graduates they turn out. If the person is not making it as student then they probably would make it as a nurse. Nursing school also have to look at the people they are admitting. I know there is a alot of discussion abou ADN vs. BSN. I have found that ADN programs take just about anybody. BNS programs require screening , good GPA, and the like.

Secondly, nurse preceptors can be good or bad. There are some nurses who are great nurse preceptors. These nurses should be encouraged and rewarded. The ability to teach other is a gift and not all nurses have that gift.

Third, new nurses themselves need to be responsible for their own training. If they don't know something ask. If no one to ask, look it up. Leaning does not end with nursing school.

Face it every person, school, educator, preceptor involved with training new nurses, is to blame, including the nurse. A bad nurse can cause serious harm and shouldn't be in nursing. That includes new nurses and the the ones older then time itself. Experience does not equal good.

I do ask, there are many new grad nurses out there who are going to be great nurses. We have the book smarts, we have the personality, we have the clinical thinking skills need ---- Just give new nurses a chance. There is a shortage of experienced nurses, but how can new nurses become experienced, if we can't even get an interview.

[mum2kaza]

i have been nursing for 30 years and I still have to look things up, ask questions... When I precept a new nurse I try my best to let them know it is ok not to know but please ask.....

[nursel56]

Another very good point. Nurses asked to be preceptors when they are fairly new themselves and/or feel they don't have the inclination to be a good preceptor may send the wrong message inadvertently. Most new grads are very sensitive to tone, body language and expression. I wonder if some of these "preceptor doesn't like me" and is "eating her young" conclusions are mis-communications. Some preceptors are plain uncomfortable in a teaching role.

[leslie :-D]

I wonder if some of these "preceptor doesn't like me" and is "eating her young" conclusions are mis-communications. Some preceptors are plain uncomfortable in a teaching role.

that really is a big part of the problem.

often, mgrs assign random nurses to precept, whether they want to or not.

and there is nothing worse than precepting w/a nurse who just doesn't want to be there.

lose-lose.

if they can't get enough nurses to volunteer, then the nurse educator needs to implement a plan that will best serve the needs of the new grad.

leslie

[lamazeteacher]

i am a new graduate who has recently been told that my critical thinking skills are not developing fast enough and i am at risk for loosing my job if they do not improve. i am about 2 mths into the 5mth new grad program. i respect my "old dog" preceptors who have seen fit to essentially leave me own my own, they satallite in my general area and i report to them what we have, what ive done what i plan to do ect. rarely are they by my side but are not far away if i need them.

find a way to tell your preceptors how much you appreciate their experience and that they let you know early enough to correct it, about your apparent deficit in critical thinking. then ask what specifically made them see that, and if they're likely to take the time to tell you, how someone with better developed critical thinking might have handled that specific occasion. also request any written materials that helped them develop theirs (after all there was a time when they didn't have that capability). then, whenever it seems appropriate send them a short note that describes how you approached another situation using critical thinking skills, having benefited by their suggestion(s). be sure to thank them again.......

i have been complimented by them ,the md's, the charge nurses & my patients(who dont know i am a new rn). the problem... when it comes to progress meetings i am told my preceptors feel like they cannot leave me alone and that im not 'where they would like me to be". i am confused... i openly welcome constructive criticism, want to learn...

thank them again for observing you, and ask what, specifically you would be doing once you're "where they would like you to be". then set goals/steps with them, to achieve that level of practise. i find that those who criticise without being able to point to a specific thing, have an agenda that is unsupportive. to redirect them if that is so, say that you would see their support for you, if they would say at the time it happens, what you've done that is below the level of skill they expected you to have. given something specific to do, if what seems to be happening (to me) is so, they'll back off.

i was under the impression i was doing well, and until the meeting i have not been given reason to think otherwise... any tips or suggestions on how to procede successfully would be appreciated. thank you.

when you have preceptors, it's a given fact that you need supervision as a new grad. they wouldn't have been appointed unless that was necessary. their work load should be much less, giving them ample time to be with you. if that's not happening at all, let those in charge know what's happening.