Questions regarding mandated overtime and being "called off"

Whispera, MSN, RN · Dec 27, 2008

lots of questions there!

In the US, at least in the places where I've worked, a person can be "called off" if there aren't enough patients, and anyone can be called off. We called it being "low-census-ed". The management tries to make it fair so everyone takes a turn, and no one suffers too much pay loss.

On paper nurses get breaks, but that doesn't mean there is actually always time to take them. Sometimes a nurse doesn't even have time for lunch. It's said it is up to the nurse to find the time in her day....

As for being mandated, if someone who is working the next shift can't come in and no one volunteers to stay, a nurse can be mandated to stay. That means the nurse HAS to stay. The nurse can't say no or risks "counseling" at the least and loss of job at the most. If the nurse is told to stay and doesn't, it's considered patient abandonment. A friend of mine was fired when she refused to stay (with good reason) but there was no one to take her place.

Pepperlady · Dec 27, 2008

So even though I am a permanent full time employee I can be called off and lose the shift !!?? I am curious to find out if I can be called off when working as a travel nurse with an agency that secures my contract for me ... I guess that will have to be asked to my recruiter.

Whispera, MSN, RN · Dec 27, 2008

A very good question...it might be the case that you would be called off before the regular staff, since the hospital pays oodles more per hour for you than it does for their regular staff. It's definitely something to ask the recruiter. Where I've worked the agency nurses were the first to be called off.

Riseupandnurse · Dec 27, 2008

This is interesting. I am more familiar with the case that that travelers are never called off, because their contract says they get paid period, as long as they are willing and able to come in on their scheduled shift. As far as taking a lunch or a break, no-one will stop you (at least what I'm familiar with), but no-one is ever available to cover either, so the work just piles up and it's not worth it, in my opinion (I know others will disagree, and that's ok).

liebling5, MSN, RN · Dec 27, 2008

I've worked travel assignments before. Most companies will guarantee you 36 hours per week. So, even if you get cancelled to work when the census is low, you still get $$. There are some facilities here that have unions, but not all do. Mostly, even when the hospital is union, the traveller is not covered in the union agreement.

Be sure to read and understand your travel contract before you agree to take an assignment. Ask your recruiter lots of questions, but also ask your friends/coworkers about the company you plan on working with. Best to you!

Pepperlady · Dec 27, 2008

I worked for a travel company in 2001/2002 (before the whole VisaScreen process which is another story) and I don't recall ever having it come up as an issue on the unit I worked on. However it is definitley something I will ensure is covered in my contract.

My reasoning for working in the US is purely to get some different experience from the small hospital I currently work in but I can't afford to not make at least what I do here.

OC_An Khe · Dec 27, 2008

With regard to MOT, it depends on what state you work in as some states have laws banning or at least limiting the practice. Some unionized employers have restrictions on the use of MOT but this varies by contract as there is no national or even state wide contracts that covers all RNs.

Calling off varies also by individual employers. Some do it routinely and others not at all. Again if the facility is unionized you may find restrictions on call off or out right banning of call offs.

Vito Andolini · Dec 27, 2008

the truth is, as i understand it, refusing to work overtime is not abandonment. but you need to thoroughly this for yourself by checking what the state board of nursing says about it. whatever state here you are planning to work in is the state you should check with, such as connecticut, montana, wherever. the law in oregon might be different than the law in alabama. see? so that's why you must know the law where you will be working. no matter what the law actually says, the employer will probably still beg, plead, or try to bully and intimidate you, threaten you with termination and with reporting you to the state board of nursing. the only acceptable reasons for not agreeing to work forced overtime where i work are that you are sick or that it is on your day off. other than that, the boss doesn't care about your obligations to your children or anyone else who depends upon you for their care and safety, they don't care about your sleep or your appointments that you might have made, or anything else but getting that floor staffed. it's very hard. fortunately, the issue doesn't come up too often where i am but it might for other nurses. usually, i make a deal with the boss. i agree to stay the 2 or 3 hours that she really needs covered and then get to leave. or i work the whole shift but get the next shift off - to recuperate.

as for being called off, low censused, canceled, whatever it's called, i don't think travelers are really subject to that but you must check with your own travel agency and know your contract. if i hired a traveler to work at my hospital and had to pay a tremendous amount of money for that traveler, i think i would not like to cancel her shift yet still have to pay her (because i'm paying her so much more than i'm paying my regular staff and her contract might call for her to be paid regardless of how many hours she works, unless she is the one calling off, such as for sickness). but your contract will spell that out, i hope, so there will be no question left unanswered about it.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Dec 27, 2008

i am a canadian nurse who is hoping to do some travel nursing in the us with a travel company. i know my questions can be directed towards my recruiter but i am asking this to get a bigger picture. somehow those recruiters just paint everything so rosy!! i did do some travel nursing in 2001/2002 but it sounds like it has changed significantly.
from what i have read nurses can get "called off", which i am taking to mean cancelled for work. does this happen to permanent full time rns or only to a select group. here in canada we can work "casual" with i believe is similar to a "per diem", because of our contract they cannot be cancelled with a bona fide reason. i am aware that most nurses in the us do not work under union contract.

as a traveler, you can have it specified into your contract the circumstances under which you will be/can be "called off" and how you will be (or if you will be) compensated for that time.

many us nurses do work under union contracts; unfortunately not all.

another thread i was reading commented that while cnas get breaks one cannot expect the same as an rn, do you really not have breaks as part of your contract?

even if we do have breaks as part of our contract, that doesn't mean we actually get to take them. a lot of that depends upon your patient load and the unit culture (how willing someone else is to watch your patients while you take a break.) as a professional, of course you wouldn't leave your patients "uncovered" and if someone isn't willing or able to cover them, you don't take a break.

mandated overtime, can someone explain that to me please. when can you be mandated, what are your abilities to refuse/decline ot.

thanks

once again, something that would be specified in your contract. also varies with the institutional policies and the culture of your unit.

for instance, i worked in one unit where staffing was tight and if you were called for overtime, you were expected to make every effort to show up. as charge nurses, we kept lists of who we called for ot and the response we got (yes/no or "left a message"). if you refused ot three times, you were counseled. (i learned very quickly to let the answering machine take the message and then claim i never got the message until after the shift started!) in another unit, ot was mandated during a period of especially heavy turnover. you had to sign up for two shifts of ot a month and be ready to show up for work within 30 minutes if you were called. that same unit had a lot of variability in census, so if census was low we were offered time off -- either "lwop" -- leave without pay -- or a chance to apply our benefit time toward that shift. usually there were more takers than we had shifts to offer off. if we had a prolonged period of low census and no one wanted to take off, we floated. (or called in sick, even if we weren't.)

your milage may vary.

RNKPCE · Dec 27, 2008

At my union hospital per diem are called off before travelers. But regular full time and part times staff are not. Now if the census is really low and there are 5 people to be called off for one shift(4 regular employees and 1 traveler) they will cancel the traveler(if though they will still get paid) in order to be able to cancel the 4 other regular employees. It costs less to eat the pay of one traveler than to eat it for the 4 regular staff who you would be kept on for no reason.

We do get our breaks 95% of the time. If not we get paid one hour of pay for each meal break we miss and one hour total pay for one or more rest breaks missed. The staff who don't put in for the missed breaks are just hurting themselves.

We have no mandated overtime that I have seen or heard of in over 18 years of working at the same facility.

luv2yoga · Dec 27, 2008

Just be aware that because of the bad economy, all of the hospitals are experiencing low census right now. Call offs are an epidemic. We are a 48 bed unit and the census has been around 30 since the summer. The old-timers say they have never, never seen it like this. I think it's happening across the country. People are delaying doctor visits, ER visits, and anything remotely elective.