I was just wondering if anyone else has experienced an issue like this, and what, if anything you or your facility has done about it.
We have a doctor that has a reputation of being extremely rude, arrogant, and scary. There are many nurses that are almost debilitated when he is around, its really rediculous. He is an instructor at a local medical school, so he likes to teach. When we have students or new hires, he likes to ask them questions. This is his way of seeing what you know and seeing what he can teach you. He loves to teach, and he is very good at it. But some people interpret him asking questions as him getting on to them or disrespectful. Yes, he has a lot of power - he is on the board at the hospital and is head of his department. He can - I have seen it - be rude and moody. But he can also be very nice as well.
When he comes onto the unit, people scatter or try to find something to do so they look busy. If I were him, and no one acknowledged me or said anything to me when I came onto the unit, I wouldn't be a happy person either! I have made it a point to say hi to this doctor, regardless if he says hi back, each and every time he comes onto the unit. I've been doing this for approximately 2 months and have seen a vast improvement. He says hi back and even acknowledges me in the hallway outside the unit! He talks to us on my shift, even laughs. We have a good team environment I think and there is an element of trust.
We have had a large turnover rate over the past year. Since then, we have hired several new grads, new nurses to our specialty, new nurses to the facility, or a combination of those. Generally all new employees train on both shifts. One thing that I really hate, is that when the new employees come off of orientation (specifically from the day shift) they have this fear and preconcieved idea of this doctor. They really haven't even worked with him yet!! They only know what they've been told others have experienced or their experience from one or two encounters.
I've had this discussion with my nursing council and manager of the unit. But the problem is not seeming to get resolved. I was wondering if anyone has expereince this on their own units and what, if anything, has been done to change it.
Please don't take it personaly but this whole post rubbed me the wrong way and I can honestly see where the nurses are justified in ignorning (hiding?) from him. Since you came on here asking for experiences/opinions - hopefully you can try to see my point without being offended. Let me take his point by point.
We have a doctor that has a reputation of being extremely rude, arrogant, and scary.
Reputations do not usually come about from one person's experiences/opinion. He must have angered/annoyed/etc. a lot of people to deserve that reputation. You youself have said "I have seen it - be rude and moody". You did add that 'he can be very nice as well' - but does that cancel out his rudy/moody periods?
I have made it a point to say hi to this doctor, regardless if he says hi back, each and every time he comes onto the unit. I've been doing this for approximately 2 months and have seen a vast improvement. He says hi back and even acknowledges me in the hallway outside the unit!
Why do you feel that you have to engage him for so long just for a the simple curtesy of a basic, less than 3 second 'Hello'? And should he be given a medal and a parade for acknowleding a co-worker outside the unit? I would not continue to address someone who deliberately ignores me. Are the nurses supposed to swallow their dignity and grovel for a greeting and basic acknowledgement? I don't blame them for hiding - he sounds like a pill.
But he's not a bad guy!
All the people quiting because of him say otherwise.
Instead of finding ways to make the nurses 'like' this doc - why don't you try to figure out a way to make this doctor stop being a self-important, arrogant, ***hole. Because I don't work with him and even I find him distasteful. I feel for your co-workers.
You almost have an 'aw shucks, what can we do' attitude about his actions. Who cares if he's so 'smart' and 'powerful'.
He can - I have seen it - be rude and moody. But he can also be very nice as well.
That does not make up for his rudeness and moodiness. We all have our bad moments, but when the only things people seem to remember about you are the bad things, maybe you should ask yourself what you need to change.
I have made it a point to say hi to this doctor, regardless if he says hi back, each and every time he comes onto the unit. I've been doing this for approximately 2 months and have seen a vast improvement.
Wow. If I have to speak to somebody over such a long period of time before they begin to acknowledge me, I'm pretty sure that I'd conclude that he's a total **** and everyone was right about him. No, wait, I wouldn't have even continued to say hello after the first or second time he didn't respond.
When we have students or new hires, he likes to ask them questions. This is his way of seeing what you know and seeing what he can teach you.
Geez, this guy just thinks he's the smartest thing ever and is the best at what he does. Going to students and asking them questions so he can teach them sure seems like intimidation to me. There are some people who like to ask students questions, knowing that they may not know the answer, just so they can humiliate them. Then they like to cover it up by saying they were just trying to be helpful and "teach" them something. And if I was a new hire and he decided to come ask me questions just so he could teach me, I'd be pretty ****** off. I got hired because I was qualified for the job. I do not need you to quiz me. If I need your help with something, I'll ask. This dude seems like he's a total narcissist who likes to show off what he knows.
They only know what they've been told others have experienced or their experience from one or two encounters.
How many encounters do people need to have with him before they have sufficient evidence that he's just a completely unpleasant person? His bad reputation didn't just pop up out of nowhere. OP, you may have developed what you consider a positive relationship with this guy, but that doesn't make everyone else wrong because they feel differently.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
. . .I've had this discussion with my nursing council and manager of the unit. But the problem is not seeming to get resolved. I was wondering if anyone has expereince this on their own units and what, if anything, has been done to change it.
Not really seeing what problem you expect the nursing council and your manager to solve. You can't tell another person how to feel -- you can certainly say things along the lines of "his bark is worse than his bite" etc. . I have said that to many people and been told that by people at just about every job I've ever had.
How would you go about dispelling preconceived notions in people who have never met the doctor? He has a reputation. Most people do, but it's not something one individual nurse can make as a crusade to change.
If he arrives on your unit and your co-workers flee the scene and he needs help - believe me if he is on the hospital Board he already knows how to throw his weight around and won't be paralyzed by something like that.
If he's abusive that's another thing entirely, but I'm not hearing that in your post.
A lot of this stuff tends to snowball when groups of people are hanging around chatting and they begin to feed off of each other.
"I'm so mad at Dr. X! Listen to what he did..."
"Oh, I know! Six months ago he gave me a really funny look too!"
When you hear negative talk about him, you might wait for a pause and then throw in something that has impressed you about him recently. I'm not sure there's a way you can dramatically alter his reputation. Shoot for making a few people more receptive to him here and there.
" he can - i have seen it - be rude and moody. but he can also be very nice as well.
when he comes onto the unit, people scatter or try to find something to do so they look busy. if i were him, and no one acknowledged me or said anything to me when i came onto the unit, i wouldn't be a happy person either! i have made it a point to say hi to this doctor, regardless if he says hi back, each and every time he comes onto the unit. i've been doing this for approximately 2 months and have seen a vast improvement. he says hi back and even acknowledges me in the hallway outside the unit! he talks to us on my shift, even laughs. we have a good team environment i think and there is an element of trust."
i'm thinking this could be a terrific team project in behavioral modification. really.
look at it this way. you've got a doc who, when all is well, is really a great doc. he likes teaching and could be a great resource if you can get things straightened out. seems like his mind would be a terrible thing to waste.
you also have a problem with a lot of folks who are insecure and prefer to think the worst of him, scattering like leaves, rather than seeing past the superficialities to the great resource he could be. the fact that he has come around to your approach leads me to think that he is not, in fact, a total jerk but is actually rehabilitation material.
so. if you all had a difficult patient, what would your approach be? you would all sit down in conference and listen to each other. what works with him? what doesn't? what sets him off? what pushes your buttons, and what can you do about that? and (this is critical) ...how will you reinforce good behavior once you see it? you don't tell the patient you're doing this... but everybody else from cnas to hn knows and does it, consistently.
while the staff think this is all about modifying him, you and your staff educator can secretly know that it will modify them, too.
we had a doc like that once and every time he did something good, we said, "wait right here!!" and ran to the desk to pull out a package of those shiny gold foil notarial seals, the big round self-sticky things with many points. we stuck one on his chest and told him, " gold star. that's for being really kind to our new grad sally when you explained k+ and insulin," or, "that's because you did such a good job of explaining to mrs. smith about her surgery-- you really listened to her."
cheesy? you betcha. and did it ever work. and the staff, instead of avoiding this guy and his cases, started hanging around him so they could work on this project. he didn't feel so ostracized; he got better at all the stuff he needed to improve, so everyone got to learn more from him. he learned a lot about what was important on a nursing floor. win-win-win.
i love the idea of dragging the newbie up to him and saying, "this is sally, she's new so don't be hard on her. sally, this is bob; he asks a lot of questions but he loves to answer them too and you can learn a lot from him." sounds like there's some basis for this kind of intervention there. go for it!
Specializes in Labor and Delivery, Newborn, Antepartum.
GrnTea I love your idea!! I will look into this more and see how/if we can adopt this into our unit. We could use this for our nurse-nurse lateral violence that is going on as well. We truely are "eating our young" so to speak.
Anyway, for those of you that are supportive and curious, I forwarded an article over lateral violence to my manager. She showed that to this physician and was upfront in telling him the preconceived ideas about him. Later that day, he pulled one of our new grad/new employees aside and talked to her. She told me yesterday afternoon that yesterday was the first time she had ever not been afraid to talk to him. She told him that she was led to believe he was a terribly mean guy and to be afraid of him and, yet, she hadn't even worked with him. During these four weeks of her orientation on that shift, she was so nervous and frazzled, that she was having a difficult time with her training. She told him and he said "there is no reason to be afraid of me."
I was impressed, and very proud, that she was so honest with him. I also was very glad that he took her aside to explain to her, his maneurisms.
And for the record, HE REALLY ISN'T A BAD GUY! His method of teaching is fantastic and he doens't seek out students to humiliate them. He looks for opportunities to teach you something you didn't know, or clarify your understanding of something else. I think we all know that textbook nursing is not real world nursing.
And finally, in a crisis situation, you can bet that nearly everyone would want him there. He's a very good doctor and really knows his stuff.
Specializes in Trauma Surgery, Nursing Management.
WOW! That's some progress already, sweetheart! I can't believe he pulled the new nurse aside to talk to her-kindly! See what a change you have made already?!?!
I am proud of YOU! I am sure that you are proud of your doc as well, but the fact that you took the bull by the horns and implemented a plan of change shows that one assertive person can change the milieu of the group. Well done.
A hundred years ago, I was in the same situation that you find yourself in now. EVERYONE was terrified of one particular surgeon, and would beg other staff members to switch assignments with them. I agreed to switch, curious about all of the ado surrounding this surgeon.
At the beginning of the case, he was VERY direct, told everyone in the room what his surgical plan was, listed out expectations, timelines, and responsibilities for each team member. He was clear in his direction. Apparently, the circulating nurse wasn't paying attention (I was scrubbing the case), and when he instructed the nurse to go ahead and get the patellar tendon graft from the freezer (as we discussed at length), she looked like a deer in the headlights and froze. She stumbled around for a bit and when he asked what she found confusing, she replied that she wasn't aware that he needed the graft. He lost it. Granted, he shouldn't have lost it, but she should have been paying attention.
I quickly came to realize that he became rather snarky when he took 10 minutes prior to every case starting to run down his 'list' specifically to avoid any hiccups in the case, and still had delays because a member of the team wasn't listening. This happened often. I don't blame him for being irritated.
A few months later, I got to know this surgeon pretty well. I found out that he used to be an engineer. That explained his 'action plan' prior to every case. When a nurse came to me and asked me to switch assignments with her because she was terrified of being yelled at by Dr. M, I explained to her what his expectations were. I told her to stop what she was doing while he went through his 'list', and to write things down so that she wouldn't forget what he asked for. She did GREAT, and was so relieved that he wasn't the monster she thought he was. After a few cases, she started to request his room.
It is wonderful when you can offer your experiences with 'difficult docs' dispel myths. I have to admit, when I first read your post, my knee jerk reaction was, "c'mon gals, put on your big girl panties and find out for yourselves what this doc is really like." It is unfortunate that so many of your peers had a distorted view of him before ever interacting with him.
I don't know why some people react defensively when being asked a question in order to teach. I love it when people challenge me! It allows me to discover the gaps in my knowledge that I may not have noticed or considered, which in turn helps me become a better nurse. It doesn't even matter who does it - another nurse or a doctor or anyone else on the health care team.
I remember as a new grad, it was my first time caring for a palliative patient on my own. When the doctor came in to see her, he asked me why she was having such-and-such symptoms. I told him I had no idea but I must have had a worried look on my face, so he smiled and told me not to worry, and he went through the physiology of it very calmly and not intimidatingly at all. I didn't take it as a criticism of my knowledge base at all.
We have a doctor on the floor who has a rather negative reputation amongst the nurses. I can sort of see why - he's rather curt at times and doesn't have much of a sense of humour and he definitely doesn't stick around to chit-chat. Still, I've only rarely had issues with him - like, maybe once or twice? I find if I speak to him professionally, he'll talk professionally back to me and things get done. When he goes in to see patients, he'll take the time to address their concerns and explain things to them. If I'm around, he'll ask me if I have any concerns about the patient.
I still remember the time he had stayed late on the floor as he was the on-call doctor for his team. He looked tired and busy, but I caught him in the hall to ask him if he could stop and see one of my patients before he left because he wasn't doing too well. He went to see the patient while I went to answer another of my call bells. He later sought me out and discussed with me what we could do (or what we couldn't; basically, he suggested palliative care and to keep the patient comfortable). I simply really appreciated that he took the time to address my concerns and see the patient despite it being late in the night and he probably just wanted to go home.
So, basically, he's not exactly a warm guy but he's not as bad as people make him out to be. The trick is to just be professional.
On the flip side, we have another doctor on our floor who has a well-deserved reputation of someone to steer clear of as much as possible. If I have to, I have no fear of calling him or asking him questions directly but if I don't have to, I won't. He'll bite off your head for the smallest reasons. I tell new grads to shrug him off like we all do if he gets short - not to fear him but to just pay him no mind.
Specializes in Infectious Disease, Neuro, Research.
Hmmm. I've been in facilities that were "run" by nursing, others "run" by the docs. Generally, IMO, morons don't like being spot-lit, regardless of their degree.
Do you know your stuff? If so, they really can't take issue with you. If not, well, might be time to find someplace where one can hide in a cloud of blissful ignorance.
Verbal violence (in a hospital, among staff) generally stops when it is placed in physical context. I've seen a 4'6" nurse stand in front of a 6' trauma surgeon in full bellow, and very sternly ask him if he intended to hit her. Stunned, the reply was "no!". Her response, "Then turn your voice the hell down!"
Bluster & bellow usually cover insecurity, incompetence, or, at the least, grossly inadequate management/leadership technique.
Florence NightinFAIL, BSN, RN
276 Posts
Please don't take it personaly but this whole post rubbed me the wrong way and I can honestly see where the nurses are justified in ignorning (hiding?) from him. Since you came on here asking for experiences/opinions - hopefully you can try to see my point without being offended. Let me take his point by point.
Reputations do not usually come about from one person's experiences/opinion. He must have angered/annoyed/etc. a lot of people to deserve that reputation. You youself have said "I have seen it - be rude and moody". You did add that 'he can be very nice as well' - but does that cancel out his rudy/moody periods?
Why do you feel that you have to engage him for so long just for a the simple curtesy of a basic, less than 3 second 'Hello'? And should he be given a medal and a parade for acknowleding a co-worker outside the unit? I would not continue to address someone who deliberately ignores me. Are the nurses supposed to swallow their dignity and grovel for a greeting and basic acknowledgement? I don't blame them for hiding - he sounds like a pill.
All the people quiting because of him say otherwise.
Instead of finding ways to make the nurses 'like' this doc - why don't you try to figure out a way to make this doctor stop being a self-important, arrogant, ***hole. Because I don't work with him and even I find him distasteful. I feel for your co-workers.
You almost have an 'aw shucks, what can we do' attitude about his actions. Who cares if he's so 'smart' and 'powerful'.