PNAP no legal charges

MEDFET, CNA · Jul 28, 2022

If your successful at rehab keep your business to yourself as this forum and life has shown regardless of recovery many do not believe people can change so the scrutiny will folllw you keep your business sobriety or other private or it may be something you can or can’t prove and cause more pain then your ready to take on?

AlmostNP · Jul 28, 2022

Thanks so much for commenting. I needed that feedback. I was concerned it might be like that. Your response is deeply appreciated.

solarex · Aug 3, 2022

On 7/22/2022 at 6:20 AM, AlmostNP said:

I’m an NP student almost done with my program. I voluntarily entered rehab but have no legal charges on my record. I’m being pressured to do PNAP but am horrified by the stories I’ve read about the program and how it will impact my APN licensure and work. If an attorney is necessary could someone suggest a good one? I in no way risked my license or patient care. Thanks.

WHO? WHO is pressuring you to do PNAP? That obviously kind of matters. Is the State Board of Nursing or someone on the Board pressuring you? Then obviously, you better do PNAP because something is coming down the pipe from the Board. Is someone from work pressuring you to do rehab to where someone from work can report it to the Board? That matters also. Or, is a friend or family member pressuring you? You see the obvious difference? Is there anyway the Board can or will find out that you have entered rehab? Is that where the pressure is coming from, or is the pressure coming from a place to where the Board will not know about your rehab?

If the pressure you write about is coming from a place to where the Board will not find out you are in rehab, then I recommend the following and exactly this...

Rehab is not simply "rehab." Rehab means

6 weeks of PHP- a partial hospitalization program where you are at the facility for 6 weeks followed IMMEDIATELY (not a one or two week or one month gap, IMMEDIATELY) by 6 weeks of IOP where you do 9 hours per week of Zoom meetings for 6 weeks. So, you are at 12 weeks with PHP and IOP. IMMEDIATELY after IOP, you enter Aftercare which is a 1 to 1.5 hour zoom rehab meeting per week for 52 weeks.

The above is Rehab. Rehab isn't 2 weeks or 6 weeks to get clean. Last thing..3 recovery meetings (either AA or Celebrate Recovery or SMART Recovery) for 1 year followed by 1 to 2 recovery meetings per week until you die. The data shows this is how you get clean and stay clean and don't relapse. 13.5 months of recovery which is 6 weeks PHP, 6 weeks IOP, 52 weeks of Aftercare, and 3 recovery meetings per week in the first year, then 1 to 2 for the rest of your life. If you short change the recommendations given, you will relapse, and the data shows exactly that, over 98 percent of people will relapse without doing the above. If you do the above, your chances are 9 percent, of which 10 percent of the nursing population has a substance use or abuse problem, so if you do the above, your chances are actually LESS than all of the other nurses that are do not have a SUD.

Warning.....go ahead and get overconfident 2 years in the process and drop those recovery meetings down to only 1 per week or 1 meeting every 2 or 3 weeks or skip meetings all together and watch what happens. You are a GIVEN to relapse. Near 100 percent.

So, knowing the info given, which is statistical driven data from a guy with an SUD who is 17 years sober and teaches recovery for many years now, these are my recommendations. If the pressure is coming from someone who is not attached to the Board or to where the Board can't find out about your rehab, then if you go by the guidelines above, you will be wise to NOT report this to the Board or enter PNAP. But, any shortcuts (skipping IOP) or doing only PHP and IOP and not the 52 week aftercare and I promise you......you have no chance. You will last 1, maybe 2, 3 years, and then you get referred to the Board in the absolute worst way and the process is alarmingly painful.

Juujuubee · Aug 24, 2022

I was in the same position as you, however someone ended up reporting me to the board and I ended up being required to complete the program, which in the end I never did, read further for the disaster train wreck that caused (I didn’t start using again). PNAP ruined my life. I no longer work in health care because of PNAP. They physically, mentally, emotionally, and financially drain you of everything all while telling you that you are a piece of crap addict that will never get better. I have medical conditions that require prescription medications for me to be able to not be hospitalized. I ended up in the ICU because the PNAP physician that reviews medications decided that he did not feel my medications were necessary or appropriate and contacted my doctor and my pharmacy to prevent it from being prescribed or filled. I almost died. I went into cardiac arrhythmia and my heart stopped twice. And I got no apology from them and I was still met with hard resistance even with clear medical documentation from the ICU showing why I needed my medication. Eventually they relented but I had to fight with them and have the hospital call and speak to the doctor personally. I was also on medications for my mental health, not anti anxiety medication or sleeping medication or anything remotely addictive, but the PNAP physician felt qualified, without ever meeting me or looking at my medical history, to discontinue medications because he stated I was over medicated. He didn’t know me or what I went through or why I was on the medications I was on. I ended up in a psychiatric hospital with suicidal ideation and on more medications than I was ever on before. The woman that was in charge of the PNAP program in my area told me that I wasn’t “trying hard enough”. She constantly criticized me and told me I was failing. She never once acknowledged that I was trying as hard as I possibly could, that I was giving all clean urines, that I was attending all meetings required and doing everything she asked. She still said I was a failure and not doing good enough in her eyes. And that if I didn’t find a way to be stable with less medication then PNAP would just take my license for that instead of me being a failure of an addict like I was because it was the exact same thing. I still don’t understand how I was failing. I was giving all clean urines and doing everything required for the program. Obviously she didn’t know anything about addiction or the term dual diagnosis. She was a therapist but seemed to have very limited knowledge in addiction. She wouldn’t give me permission to work, she barely authorized anyone in our group, so I ended up getting evicted from my apartment because if you can’t work how do you pay your bills? I was used to a nurses salary and went to a cashiers salary of $11/hr. I was behind on all my bills and ended up maxing out all my cards and to this day have horrible credit and debt. Yet every week they require a urine test that is a fee out of pocket and can range in price up to the hundreds of dollars depending on what they decide to order, a meeting fee which is a fee out of pocket, driving around to all these places because nothing was near my house, all the AA/NA meetings they required you to attend which again were no where near where I lived, meeting with your sponsor, once a month she made us meet with her to review how we were doing which was another $100 fee, doctors reviewing medications was another $50 fee, if she didn’t think you were doing as well as she thought you should be doing she made you meet with her more regularly at $100 each time. And I know I’m missing more fees that I’m not remembering. At a minimum just to be in the program you would pay $740/month, and that was the bare minimum, nothing extra, basic drug tests and not counting gas. Just to do the driving for the PNAP required things it took me a tank and a half of gas every week. I was only making $600/month from my $11/hr job. I had to beg family members to lend me money with the promise to pay it back once I was able to work as a nurse again. There are certain businesses that contract with PNAP in my area that will take “addict nurses” like we’re some kind of diseased animal or something. I finally got permission to work because I met all the requirements per the program and the lady in charge could not deny it. She set me up to work at one of these places. And it was a little heart breaking. I was used to making $30/hr. Because we were “addict nurses” they would only pay me $17/hr and I got the highest pay because I had experience and education. Other people got as low as $13, which I feel is taking advantage but whatever. I was working at the facility for 3 months and everything was going well. They were talking about giving me a raise when people came out and said they had money stolen from them in the locker room. Without investigation or discussion I was fired on the spot and they notified my program. 2 days later they called me back and told me they had found out it was the janitor via CCTV footage and they had pressed charges and wanted me to come back and work there again. I had no desire to go back and work there or have anything to do with PNAP either. I requested the official paperwork and then submitted it to withdraw from the PNAP program voluntarily and to surrender my license. They didn’t process it correctly and ended up putting it through the legal system. My license states that it was taken from me because I was impaired by drugs and or alcohol while on the job. And then to make it even worse whenever a background check is run, a statement on my background comes up stating that I was found under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol while working as a nurse and that the state had to take my license. That’s not even true. I tried to get the state board to remove it but they refuse, stating it’s not their problem. If I want it removed then I have to do it and pay for it myself. I looked into the legal process of fighting this and I would have to hire a lawyer to get it removed and it would cost thousands of dollars. I’ve gone on job interviews where everything went great and then get a call back and the person who interviewed me says “You’re disgusting. Don’t you feel any remorse? How could you work with patients while on drugs?”
“You’re a horrible human being. There’s a place in hell for you” “I hope you can’t sleep at night. I hope someone under the influence takes care of you and see how you feel” I don’t say anything because why would they believe me? It’s on my background check so they’re going to believe that before they’re going to believe me. For every 100 applications for jobs I fill out, I might get one call back because everyone pre-screens applications these days. And out of that even then most of the time things don’t move forward. I’m lucky to have a job now but I’m always afraid if something happens and I need to move on, I won’t be able to get another one. I’m moving to a new town soon and the commute is too far for my current job for how much I make per hour. I’ve applied to over 400 jobs in the past month (thank you job apps for keeping track) and I haven’t had one call back. I’d love to go back to school and start over with a new profession but I’m screwed on that. I was a thesis statement away from my masters degree when I went to rehab and now all of my education is completely meaningless. I never finished my masters. I can’t get any further government undergraduate loans because I started my masters degree and PNAP ruined my credit so I can’t get any private loans. The only way I could go back would be to pay in full which there is no way that is a possibility. So I can’t go back to school. I’m stuck at low paying dead end jobs with no futures. So that’s the tale of how PNAP can ruin a life. If anyone can avoid being involved with PNAP I highly recommend it. Have a great day!

Lust4life, BSN · Aug 24, 2022

Do PNAP and stay in compliance with them. It's the only way to ever practice again. They are gonna say you have to do inpt rehab, no matter what, so prepare yourself for that. They say self reporting is the way to go, etc, but the only difference between self reporting and getting reported is that you likely aren't charged criminally (Which is actually everything)!! A criminal charge makes everything harder and way worse! PNAP will say if you don't comply they will report you to the BON. It's such a poorly ran, catch 22, BS deal. BON is probably already aware. Nothing is confidential. You're in it now....only way through it is to jumps through their hoops, or hang up your nursing hat for good. But, don't do that. They make it hard to do, but apparently it is doable. Best wishes!

nursebeth22 · Aug 31, 2022

I was honest on my license renewal that I had a misdemeanor for a DUI I was contacted by PNAP. when I went for my evaluation I was clean and sober I had attended rehab and was doing great! It didn't matter I was told I had to complete this 3 year program with PNAP It was crazy the cost and demands the put on me with the random urine screens, I missed them due to working and eventually quit the program and gave up my license after 17 years of nursing. I felt like a part of me died. It was who I was, a nurse. I didn't go to work intoxicated ever. It was my personal life I was struggling with. Everyone who knew me as a nurse, coworkers, and patients always praised me. I was a great nurse and loved my job. JoAnn Megan from PNAP was so rude to me It is not a program for support or help. It is a punishment for people who make mistakes even if you get your life back on track, they do not consider that. Do everything you can to avoid this torture.. I miss nursing everyday. Would do anything to have that part of my life back, I now work as a paraeducator at an elementary school. The pay sucks, but I am thankful to have a job, Good Luck to all nurses who struggle. All I can say is avoid PNAP!

Lust4life, BSN · Sep 1, 2022

I remember Joanne also from all those years ago. I still have dreams of working on my floor as a nurse, and I am always wondering how I'm gonna get my pay if I didn't punch in lmao. It's a shame that they are the way the are and so many good nurses have had to go a different route. But, we do and can recover without paying thousands upon thousands for their program. They know most nurses can't afford it. It's all set up out of the need to offer help, but also so there's only a few who make it. In my opinion. I totally relate! ?

Juujuubee · Sep 1, 2022

I agree, it is absolutely a punishment. A punishment that does not fit the crime. A punishment that far exceeds anything that a nurse deserves. Doctors are not put through such a rigorous program and they are given way more leniency than nurses are. For nurses charged with actual crimes, they already were served a sentence and are paying society back. Everyone else, if you’re serious about being clean and go to rehab and do what you were taught, why do you need such punitive measures put on you for 3 years? Yes I understand we have a license to work with patients, however most nurses I met in PNAP never drank/used on the job as they respected that time as a professional. I know I did. I didn’t care even if it made me puke my guts out, there was no way I would ever go to work impaired. There was only one nurse in my group who wasn’t serious about their recovery and you could tell the moment you met her. She was the only one not invested in doing what they were supposed to do, getting their participation points, asking questions, giving answers, making sure to be where they were supposed to be on time at all times etc. My job and my patients were everything to me. I had gone through an extremely extremely (I’d add a million extremely to the sentence but you get the point) traumatizing situation at my old place of employment and even with self requested psychiatric intervention because I was having a really hard time coping. Many people from there were having a hard time like I was. One of my colleagues even committed suicide because he just could not deal with what happened. It wasn’t like I was some wild party girl that went out. If anything, other than work, I didn’t leave my house for months which was highly unusual for me. I still struggle with agoraphobia to this day and honestly it’s gotten worse instead of better. If the traumatic tragic events had not ever happened at my work, I don’t think my addiction ever would have happened to me at all. But PNAP does not care about individual situations. Everyone is punished and as hard as they possibly can be. If by the time PNAP does your eval, you have successfully completed rehab, gotten psychiatric help of your own volition, and have been clean for a decent amount of months (I.e. 6 months), you’ve had no erratic behaviors at work, there’s been no medications stolen from your job, you’re pretty much following the rules of their program anyway (I. E. AA/NA meetings, sponsor) they should see that you as a person are doing fine and maybe do random periodic monitoring and check in with your employer whenever they want. But that will never happen. Even if someone went to rehab 20+ years ago as a minor before you were even thinking about becoming a nurse, PNAP is forced on you. (True story: I have a friend who was forced to go to rehab by her parents when she was 14 for substance abuse. Obviously as a minor you have no say. It did change her life very positively though. She became a nurse and had been working as a nurse for over 15 years at that point. She angered another nurse who knew her story because she was proud of who she had become, that nurse reported her to the board that she had gone to rehab when she was 14 years old and needed to be investigated. Originally when she got her license, she self reported that she had gone to rehab when she was aged 14, the board discussed it after reviewing her records and she was allowed to proceed without PNAP. PNAP contacted my friend and stated she must turn in all medical records, including from that rehab stay. They stated she would be required to do PNAP or lose her license, which she refused to do it as the board had told her she didn’t have to when she first got her license. The board and PNAP told her now because someone “reported“ her, she now had to complete the program. She got a lawyer and tried to appeal this but in the end was unsuccessful. She never told me exactly why. So she said no thank you, turned in her license, and now she does something completely unrelated to health care. I mean at that point she had gone to rehab over 30+ years ago and was in an upper management insurance nursing job with no patient or medication contact. None of that was taken into consideration.) I feel like PNAP just wants to damage people people with addiction issues. I saw no benefits from being in the PNAP program. Actually to the contrary, I feel like being in that program made me want to relapse and since leaving that program I have never had that feeling since. Even thinking about PNAP sometimes makes me have a physical reaction of palpitations, sweating, nausea, headaches, and overall feeling unwell. I’ve been many places, seen many things, and even experienced domestic abuse. I’d rather experience domestic abuse than be involved with PNAP again, that’s how horrible my experience was. That woman who was in charge of my area was so awful. Just constantly telling people they were failure addicts that weren’t going to succeed when people just entering the program are vulnerable and need support. They don’t need someone who is supposed to support them to tear them down over and over again. I don’t see how she was even allowed in that position. We were supposed to be able to send anonymous surveys about her in to PNAP. Later we found out she got to see them first and she knew what our unique identifier numbers were for the surveys so she knew what we wrote about her. It wouldn’t surprise me if she altered our surveys to make her look better. I quit the program in 2016. There are 3 people who started before me who are still in PNAP under that woman and still trying to get their licenses back. As far as I know, there are very very very few people succeed under that evil woman. I found out later that she also does a program for parolees with drug and alcohol stipulations so maybe that’s why she treats everyone like criminals that will never succeed as I know the recidivism rate in our area is high? That really shouldn’t matter though because everyone should be treated as an individual. But anyway I’ve rambled enough. Point is, I despise PNAP and the ruin they bring to peoples livelihoods. The program needs an overhaul to make it more workable and acceptable. Currently there is rampant verbal, emotional, and financial abuse going on to the participants and participants who first start out in the program end up getting themselves screwed financially.

Lust4life, BSN · Sep 1, 2022

That is horrible about your friend, from 14 yrs old. That's exactly how it would be handled. That mental evaluation is BS. Using the same 1 psychiatrist for years and years.....can't imagine how much cash he must make off of it. Kickbacks or something, or else why would such a busy Dr, as they have said, continue to do it after all these years. I read court documents from a nurse who sued and it said one reason they didn't find him fit to nursing was because he admitted to having a family hx of abuse. The rationale: more likely to relapse. It's just all total BS. You are completely right that physician do not have to deal with the same punishments. It also irritates me that you could live one state over and have a whole different outcome. I was surprised to learn that BON in PA is made up of 7 ppl. Seven!! They don't change their seats often either. It needs reform!! I think things will change as more of those who were in the epidemic get clean and come for what is theirs, but sadly for us it may be too late. But I push for reform, and education prior to license infringement, so no other nurse has to go through it.

Lust4life, BSN · Sep 1, 2022

On 8/24/2022 at 12:40 AM, Juujuubee said:

I was in the same position as you, however someone ended up reporting me to the board and I ended up being required to complete the program, which in the end I never did, read further for the disaster train wreck that caused (I didn’t start using again). PNAP ruined my life. I no longer work in health care because of PNAP. They physically, mentally, emotionally, and financially drain you of everything all while telling you that you are a piece of crap addict that will never get better. I have medical conditions that require prescription medications for me to be able to not be hospitalized. I ended up in the ICU because the PNAP physician that reviews medications decided that he did not feel my medications were necessary or appropriate and contacted my doctor and my pharmacy to prevent it from being prescribed or filled. I almost died. I went into cardiac arrhythmia and my heart stopped twice. And I got no apology from them and I was still met with hard resistance even with clear medical documentation from the ICU showing why I needed my medication. Eventually they relented but I had to fight with them and have the hospital call and speak to the doctor personally. I was also on medications for my mental health, not anti anxiety medication or sleeping medication or anything remotely addictive, but the PNAP physician felt qualified, without ever meeting me or looking at my medical history, to discontinue medications because he stated I was over medicated. He didn’t know me or what I went through or why I was on the medications I was on. I ended up in a psychiatric hospital with suicidal ideation and on more medications than I was ever on before. The woman that was in charge of the PNAP program in my area told me that I wasn’t “trying hard enough”. She constantly criticized me and told me I was failing. She never once acknowledged that I was trying as hard as I possibly could, that I was giving all clean urines, that I was attending all meetings required and doing everything she asked. She still said I was a failure and not doing good enough in her eyes. And that if I didn’t find a way to be stable with less medication then PNAP would just take my license for that instead of me being a failure of an addict like I was because it was the exact same thing. I still don’t understand how I was failing. I was giving all clean urines and doing everything required for the program. Obviously she didn’t know anything about addiction or the term dual diagnosis. She was a therapist but seemed to have very limited knowledge in addiction. She wouldn’t give me permission to work, she barely authorized anyone in our group, so I ended up getting evicted from my apartment because if you can’t work how do you pay your bills? I was used to a nurses salary and went to a cashiers salary of $11/hr. I was behind on all my bills and ended up maxing out all my cards and to this day have horrible credit and debt. Yet every week they require a urine test that is a fee out of pocket and can range in price up to the hundreds of dollars depending on what they decide to order, a meeting fee which is a fee out of pocket, driving around to all these places because nothing was near my house, all the AA/NA meetings they required you to attend which again were no where near where I lived, meeting with your sponsor, once a month she made us meet with her to review how we were doing which was another $100 fee, doctors reviewing medications was another $50 fee, if she didn’t think you were doing as well as she thought you should be doing she made you meet with her more regularly at $100 each time. And I know I’m missing more fees that I’m not remembering. At a minimum just to be in the program you would pay $740/month, and that was the bare minimum, nothing extra, basic drug tests and not counting gas. Just to do the driving for the PNAP required things it took me a tank and a half of gas every week. I was only making $600/month from my $11/hr job. I had to beg family members to lend me money with the promise to pay it back once I was able to work as a nurse again. There are certain businesses that contract with PNAP in my area that will take “addict nurses” like we’re some kind of diseased animal or something. I finally got permission to work because I met all the requirements per the program and the lady in charge could not deny it. She set me up to work at one of these places. And it was a little heart breaking. I was used to making $30/hr. Because we were “addict nurses” they would only pay me $17/hr and I got the highest pay because I had experience and education. Other people got as low as $13, which I feel is taking advantage but whatever. I was working at the facility for 3 months and everything was going well. They were talking about giving me a raise when people came out and said they had money stolen from them in the locker room. Without investigation or discussion I was fired on the spot and they notified my program. 2 days later they called me back and told me they had found out it was the janitor via CCTV footage and they had pressed charges and wanted me to come back and work there again. I had no desire to go back and work there or have anything to do with PNAP either. I requested the official paperwork and then submitted it to withdraw from the PNAP program voluntarily and to surrender my license. They didn’t process it correctly and ended up putting it through the legal system. My license states that it was taken from me because I was impaired by drugs and or alcohol while on the job. And then to make it even worse whenever a background check is run, a statement on my background comes up stating that I was found under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol while working as a nurse and that the state had to take my license. That’s not even true. I tried to get the state board to remove it but they refuse, stating it’s not their problem. If I want it removed then I have to do it and pay for it myself. I looked into the legal process of fighting this and I would have to hire a lawyer to get it removed and it would cost thousands of dollars. I’ve gone on job interviews where everything went great and then get a call back and the person who interviewed me says “You’re disgusting. Don’t you feel any remorse? How could you work with patients while on drugs?”
“You’re a horrible human being. There’s a place in hell for you” “I hope you can’t sleep at night. I hope someone under the influence takes care of you and see how you feel” I don’t say anything because why would they believe me? It’s on my background check so they’re going to believe that before they’re going to believe me. For every 100 applications for jobs I fill out, I might get one call back because everyone pre-screens applications these days. And out of that even then most of the time things don’t move forward. I’m lucky to have a job now but I’m always afraid if something happens and I need to move on, I won’t be able to get another one. I’m moving to a new town soon and the commute is too far for my current job for how much I make per hour. I’ve applied to over 400 jobs in the past month (thank you job apps for keeping track) and I haven’t had one call back. I’d love to go back to school and start over with a new profession but I’m screwed on that. I was a thesis statement away from my masters degree when I went to rehab and now all of my education is completely meaningless. I never finished my masters. I can’t get any further government undergraduate loans because I started my masters degree and PNAP ruined my credit so I can’t get any private loans. The only way I could go back would be to pay in full which there is no way that is a possibility. So I can’t go back to school. I’m stuck at low paying dead end jobs with no futures. So that’s the tale of how PNAP can ruin a life. If anyone can avoid being involved with PNAP I highly recommend it. Have a great day!

JuJubee, since we are now a part of the Americans with Disabilities Act....everything they did to you was/is discrimination. The part of them securing unemployment for RNs at the same type of facilities for $17 an hour is discrimination. That you couldn't take your meds...discrimination. I would strongly suggest that you check out the Department of Justice website and you can file an easy report. At the least, once we start standing for our rights they will have an eye on them the more people allow those in society to become aware of what they are doing to us. They play off of our guilt and shame that we don't confide in too many ppl about our issues. Those who aren't nurses who go through it have no idea that we are treated like this. I think all would agree it is overly punitive and damaging. They actually think it's great they offer a diversion program...they have no idea. I had just gotten my BSN and was about to apply to school to be a CRNA. I have loans out the *** and like you, nine years later I struggle to find employment. I have had luck working in substance abuse treatment because I went through a long program and they hired me on and I got a certification. Is easier to do if you have lived substance abuse experience. It's not a nurses salary, but at least I have purpose there and can help serve ppl....without being treated like a leper.

debkj, BSN · Sep 9, 2022

I was referred to the IPN in Florida after I “diverted” (I call it steal) drugs to commit suicide. My sons father had taken him and wouldn’t return him. He was 3 years old. Their family was super-rich. He was emotionally abusive too. Anyway, I planned to kill myself because I was so down and hopeless about life and getting my son back. Long story, but I didn’t die! I reported myself to the hospital and went into IPN. I got the help I needed outside the program through counseling. AA and NA meetings just made me want to drink- all the talk about alcohol. And I didn’t really drink before. Drug screens, IPN monitoring fees. I was going broke too. I decided to go to seminary and was accepted. IPN said no. I can’t leave the state. I decided I didn’t want to do all this for 5 years and relinquished my license. It’s messed up my nursing career forever. No one cares how long it’s been (over 20 years) and no I haven’t gotten UDS’s for the past 20 years. I am in school for my NP and am wondering what hell I’ll encounter to get my DEA license.