I've been reading through some threads, and it seems a large number are people desperately looking for preceptors so they can complete clinicals. I wondered how widespread this problem is, and starting searching online - my results were astounding. There are literally hundreds (maybe thousands) of stories online of people having to drop out of their NP program because they cannot find preceptors. This is absolutely unacceptable. Why is it okay for a program to take your money and not actually provide your education? It's bad for education quality, it's bad for professional perception, and it's just deplorable.
I would like to start a petition to the AACN/CCNE asking them to require NP programs to set up clinical rotations for students in order to gain accreditation. The whole purpose of accreditation is to ensure programs are competent and teaching what needs to be taught, and they are doing potential students a huge disservice by allowing programs to exist that do not meet these standards.
Would anyone else be willing to sign this petition?
What is a petition going to do? You should have been proactive and researched your program better. The program I attended over 10 years ago did provide preceptors. Some were better than others, but each took the time and effort to teach and train me. I have done the same for years. I feel obligated to help train the next generation of ACNP's. I will not take students who go directly from RN to ACNP and think twice before taking anyone from an online only program. A petition is worthless be proactive and search things for yourself.
I'm going to Columbia. They provide preceptors. Did you even read this thread? I think the practice is bad for the profession overall, it has nothing to do with my program.
I don't agree. Having been in the profession 20 years I can honestly say that the traditionally university based programs outweigh those of the online programs. I work in a major hospital and have been in critical care for most of my career. As an ACNP over 10 years I have seen the caliber of students coming through from online programs perform worse than those of the tradititional university based programs. What's worse seeing RN programs offering direct RN to NP programs. Having met a couple of these students the general theme is that did not want bedside care. In other words "lazy" work ethic. One of them followed me around and said "I want to do what you do". I said "why" and her response was "you don't work that hard". I was amazed at the response and then informed the RN of the many things that I am looking for and dealing with in terms of patient care. After that I have refused to take any direct RN to ACNP students since. The only online NP students that I will preceptor are those that are already NPs and seek to get a second certification as an ACNP.
I know of a med school and PA school that have done just that, in fact the site the students setup with is one I will be doing my precepting with. I don't watch the national news, but I'm sure if they came here for an interview, I would have heard about it... Small town gossip and all!
I'm all for improving programs that are producing NPs that either can't pass the boards or are performing below standards after they do pass the boards. All I'm saying is let's IMPROVE the situation, not just change the situation. This is a discussion about FORCING ALL programs to provide preceptors. I'm totally opposed to that, and no one has shown any proof that allowing students to find preceptor sites is a bad thing if they are managed well. They have not been a problem for my schools midwifery program, their FNP program, or for the above mentioned schools PA program and med school. In fact the med school in question is very highly regarded.
Yes, I refuse to be told this model is in fact obviously inferior. I'm not saying it isn't, but since no proof has been shown to me that it is inferior, I'm not going to buy that statement without it. As I mentioned above, there are med schools and PA schools who use preceptor sites that students bring to them. So, that argument isn't valid.
Second, the online and prior to that mail based lessons model has been used by CNM programs since the 1950s when Kitty Ernst started her school. There are no studies I can find indicating that CNMs provide inferior care, or that the online programs produced inferior CNMs. In fact one of the most widely respected CNM schools has been a leader in online education, and remains so.
Third, CNMs have also found their own preceptors for that same period of time, and they continue to do so. Again, it has not produced inferior results. So, If you are going to claim that these program produce inferior results, please show facts.
No one is saying finding your own preceptor is always worse, just that due to lack of oversight it makes it easier for people to have lackluster clinicals, which is especially important in online programs where there is little in person teaching. There is nothing stopping a student, for example, from doing all of their clinicals under a new grad NP inside a minute clinic...and that's not going to be a rigorous enough prep to be a provider. You can give all the anecdotes you want, but you cannot refute the simple fact that not just anyone should be a preceptor, and by allowing students to set up their own that's exactly what is happening. It's inexperienced people teaching others, and that is simply unacceptable.
Furthermore, I call BS on your comment about the medical school. No medical school in this country is forcing students to find their own clinical sites. If anything they may be allowing students to suggest a clinical site, which they then vet and ensure is adequate, but nothing like NP programs where the school doesn't even visit the site or speak to the preceptor first. Furthermore, if the med student wants a site already established by the school they can do that...unlike NP programs where the student either finds their own or fails out. Any medical school that wasn't establishing clinical sites for their students would immediately lose accreditation. Unlike the sad nursing boards, the medical boards don't play around with quality.
I know of a med school and PA school that have done just that, in fact the site the students setup with is one I will be doing my precepting with. I don't watch the national news, but I'm sure if they came here for an interview, I would have heard about it... Small town gossip and all!
I'm all for improving programs that are producing NPs that either can't pass the boards or are performing below standards after they do pass the boards. All I'm saying is let's IMPROVE the situation, not just change the situation. This is a discussion about FORCING ALL programs to provide preceptors. I'm totally opposed to that, and no one has shown any proof that allowing students to find preceptor sites is a bad thing if they are managed well. They have not been a problem for my schools midwifery program, their FNP program, or for the above mentioned schools PA program and med school. In fact the med school in question is very highly regarded.
Yes, I refuse to be told this model is in fact obviously inferior. I'm not saying it isn't, but since no proof has been shown to me that it is inferior, I'm not going to buy that statement without it. As I mentioned above, there are med schools and PA schools who use preceptor sites that students bring to them. So, that argument isn't valid.
Second, the online and prior to that mail based lessons model has been used by CNM programs since the 1950s when Kitty Ernst started her school. There are no studies I can find indicating that CNMs provide inferior care, or that the online programs produced inferior CNMs. In fact one of the most widely respected CNM schools has been a leader in online education, and remains so.
Third, CNMs have also found their own preceptors for that same period of time, and they continue to do so. Again, it has not produced inferior results. So, If you are going to claim that these program produce inferior results, please show facts.
What med/PA school? You aren't talking about North Dakota are you?
A refund for what? Education that you've already completed? AFAIK, most of these schools make v. clear to individuals that it will be their responsibility to line up clinical preceptors, and people sign up for these programs in droves.
I have to say that when I applied to my school, I had an idea that I would be responsible for finding my own preceptor ( from posts I've seen on all nurses) but I did not know the full extent of that and how hard it would be until I had to start searching for my first clinical. The school sort of glossed over the finding your own preceptor part by saying the the clinical placement office has a list of sites people used in the past to help in finding preceptors but they failed to mention the list was somewhat outdated.
No one is saying finding your own preceptor is always worse, just that due to lack of oversight it makes it easier for people to have lackluster clinicals, which is especially important in online programs where there is little in person teaching. There is nothing stopping a student, for example, from doing all of their clinicals under a new grad NP inside a minute clinic...and that's not going to be a rigorous enough prep to be a provider. You can give all the anecdotes you want, but you cannot refute the simple fact that not just anyone should be a preceptor, and by allowing students to set up their own that's exactly what is happening. It's inexperienced people teaching others, and that is simply unacceptable.
Furthermore, I call BS on your comment about the medical school. No medical school in this country is forcing students to find their own clinical sites. If anything they may be allowing students to suggest a clinical site, which they then vet and ensure is adequate, but nothing like NP programs where the school doesn't even visit the site or speak to the preceptor first. Furthermore, if the med student wants a site already established by the school they can do that...unlike NP programs where the student either finds their own or fails out. Any medical school that wasn't establishing clinical sites for their students would immediately lose accreditation. Unlike the sad nursing boards, the medical boards don't play around with quality.
I agree that there is a chance that someone can have lackluster clinical but not because you have to find your own clinicals, but more so because the preceptor is not a good or willing teacher or time constraints of the preceptor make it impossible to provide a good experience. I kind of favor finding your own clinicals as an option instead of a requirement because it allows you to tailor your clinical experience, I just wished schools provide better support for those that find it difficult to find a willing preceptor. I know my program had a 3 step approval process for approving preceptors, to make sure therapy were appropriate for an adult health primary care np experience p, with the advisors checking their credentials before approving them. Going to a school that finds preceptors for you does not guarantee that you will get an appropriate experience either. I know of people who were in primary care np programs and did not have any primary care clinical placements; every placement was in an acute setting. I also know people who were placed by their school with preceptors who gave them no oversight at all.
Instead of creating/signing a petition, why not just only sign up for NP programs that provide preceptors?
Blame the victim argument...
I do not think this would resolve the issue. Institutions of higher learning are not exactly 100% forthcoming on possible difficulties you may face on a variety of issues. While I agree that it is important for the individual to educate himself before investing in a higher education, it is not outlandish to expect a certain basic professional standard to be held throughout institutions. (which for some reason the nursing profession has yet to see clearly)
I wonder how many medical students (not necessarily residents) drop out or delay obtaining credentials due to the inability to find clinical preceptors. Their goal should be to accept the correct amount of students.
You know it all comes down to money and added stress to the school. If you can not find enough preceptors, then do not accept additional students.
I went to Yale University where they did provide preceptors and yes I did read the thread. I knew this and was aware of UCONN students having to find their own preceptors. Schools policy and was stated up front. Also, some hospitals will not take students from certain programs as well. Buyer beware.
I would absolutely sign the petition. I have been in this exact position, I realized that everyone has different reasons why they chose online school, but this standard should not be tolerated. I spent almost a year trying to find preceptors only to fall short a month before I had to travel for a skills weekend. I decided through all the drama that this would not be my future 2 years in this program, scared and stressed that if I didn't have a preceptor I was screwed for the semester. I loved the theory parts on online school, I was able to continue working full time and supporting my family, but when it an to clinicals the school dropped the ball. I wanted to make sure that we would be getting the same kind of experiences, what if there were issues could the school step in? Basically there answer was since we don't find the preceptor for you, we have no control over your clinical experience. That was the straw the broke the camels back. I kindly said I would sit out this year and return in the fall. I decided to apply to 3 "brick & mortar" schools in my area that secure preceptors for you. Thankfully I was accepted at all 3 of the schools and will start back in the fall.
I would absolutely sign the petition. I have been in this exact position, I realized that everyone has different reasons why they chose online school, but this standard should not be tolerated. I spent almost a year trying to find preceptors only to fall short a month before I had to travel for a skills weekend. I decided through all the drama that this would not be my future 2 years in this program, scared and stressed that if I didn't have a preceptor I was screwed for the semester. I loved the theory parts on online school, I was able to continue working full time and supporting my family, but when it an to clinicals the school dropped the ball. I wanted to make sure that we would be getting the same kind of experiences, what if there were issues could the school step in? Basically there answer was since we don't find the preceptor for you, we have no control over your clinical experience. That was the straw the broke the camels back. I kindly said I would sit out this year and return in the fall. I decided to apply to 3 "brick & mortar" schools in my area that secure preceptors for you. Thankfully I was accepted at all 3 of the schools and will start back in the fall.
This is exactly what it looks like at most schools that don't secure preceptors, and your story is not uncommon. Unfortunately, it's becoming the norm as schools realize they can get away with providing education without spending the time and money on setting up clinicals. In any other profession, students would be up in arms over this and demand a change in accreditation. Unfortunately, this is nursing, and as you can see from the responses in this thread it will be almost impossible to enact any sort of change. The idea of professionalism is lost on many of these posters.
I never said any school is "forcing" students to do so. Dranger said that med schools would not allow students to help in selecting their sites, well I know of one in my state that does. So your BS is wrong. Look it up.
Second, I only know of how my program handles preceptors and sites, so I can only talk about them. They do not blindly allow a student to claim to have a preceptor and never check up on it. Stating that NP programs do that is false, because you are making a blanket statement that my program as well as others do so, and that is incorrect.
So, in fact, the way my program and the med school and PA programs I'm talking about find preceptors is in fact very similar.
futureeastcoastNP
533 Posts
I'm going to Columbia. They provide preceptors. Did you even read this thread? I think the practice is bad for the profession overall, it has nothing to do with my program.