PA's make more $$ than NP's?!

Specialties NP

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I've considered NP school, and, after talking with several NPs who work in academics I was very disappointed to hear that PA's make more $$ than NPs. Especially since many NPs have years of nursing experience which I would think puts them at an advantage in advanced practice. And to think that an MA can go right into a PA program and make more $$ coming out? Or a secretary can go into PA school ( I know 2 secretaries/unit coordinators them from my work who had no patient care experience and got into renowned PA programs). And these people are writing prescriptions within 2 years? What have all of you heard about the pay? I think its ridiculous and if anything, NPs should be in the higher pay bracket. I'm not here to bash PAs, but if this is true it feels like a slap in the face for nursing. I'm curious, what have you heard about the pay? Does this matter, for me, it would.

I ask you one question. How is going to PA school with no experience different from going to med school with no experiece.

SWR PA-S

I think there's a big difference, even if you include NPs into the question. A PA-C/NP training is 2 years. Medical doctoral training is 4 years. In addition, they complete a residency for a minimum of 3 years. And, they hold BA/BS degrees commonly in biology or biochemistry. They also take the MCAT and have a GPA of at least 3.6 in undergrad studies. Not to put MDs on a pedestal, but getting into med school is extremely tough. I'm sure it is beneficial to have prior healthcare experience, but due to the demands of the program it's not very realistic to work 4 years as a paramedic, MA etc get a BA/BS then go to med school. It involves planning and the committment to be school for up to 11 years total (including undergrad). The bottom line is, they get much more training than what an NP/PA-C would get and they get most of their experience in the residencies.

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Hello, I am new to this forum and am appalled by this comment. I am a PA student, and everyday I hear about how NP's have more experience than PA's and should be paid more. Also, my program loves to accept nurses. However, there is only one problem. Every single nurse they have accepted has FLUNKED OUT. So their previous preparation didn't show that much difference. I personally think that NP and PA's are both great. PA schooling is very grueling. We take the SAME CLASSES AS MED SCHOOL STUDENTS.

SWR PA-S

You need to help me with this thought. Your program loves to accept nurses yet every one has flunked out? What does your program love about nurses?

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Specializes in Critical Care, Emergency, Education, Informatics.
Hello, I am new to this forum and am appalled by this comment. I am a PA student, and everyday I hear about how NP's have more experience than PA's and should be paid more. PA's ALSO come from a variety f healthcare backgrounds, not just nursing. We are varied. We are EMT's, nurses, flight medics and many more. It has been said that nurses are better prepared to got into midlevel training than those with no experience. I ask you one question. How is going to PA school with no experience different from going to med school with no experiece. Most graduates form college go straight into med school. Also, my program loves to accept nurses. However, there is only one problem. Every single nurse they have accepted has FLUNKED OUT. So their previous preparation didn't show that much difference. Also, thinking as a nurse is one thing; thinking like a practitioner (PA or NP) is totally different. If not, then nurses would be prescribing medication. My point is that, when PA programs accept students, they keep in mind that they are training individuals to think like practitioners. I personally think that NP and PA's are both great. PA schooling is very grueling. We take the SAME CLASSES AS MED SCHOOL STUDENTS.

SWR PA-S

hmm being married to a graduate PA program faculty member, I can say that the majority of the PA programs out there don't take the same classes as med school students. As a matter of fact most of the classes that are required in the credentialing prcess for a PA program don't match the MD curriculum. Now in some places, A&P can be shared. But everything else is different. I was reading in one of the articles in an academic journal that most of the PA programs were'nt affiliated with a med school any more. Or maybe it was new programs, I can't remember.

I'd also like to see the reality of what happened to those nurses, were they flunked out or did they drop out. There is a difference. I can point to about half a dozen PA's who started as nurses and excelled at it. I can also point to a couple of classes were all the students had been paramedics first and half of them flunked out. I don't think it had anything to do with them being paramedics. I think it had to do with the fact the individuals werent' ready for the demands of being a full time student. there is something to be said about going from a part tiem student taking a couple of classes a semester and jumping into a 5 day a week, 8 hours a day graduate progem, were you have to read well over 100 pages a night.

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The argument of PA's vs NP's has cropped up again. It is counterproductive for professionals or future professionals to argue this silliness. The fact is both professions have contributed a great deal to health care and anectdodal (sp.) evidence about either is just what it sounds like hersay. Finally, if you wish to compare curriculum for NP's and PA's don't ask about it go online to one the various schools and see for yourself. It is significantly different. There I feel better now.

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Hello, I am new to this forum and am appalled by this comment. I am a PA student, and everyday I hear about how NP's have more experience than PA's and should be paid more. PA's ALSO come from a variety f healthcare backgrounds, not just nursing. We are varied. We are EMT's, nurses, flight medics and many more. It has been said that nurses are better prepared to got into midlevel training than those with no experience. I ask you one question. How is going to PA school with no experience different from going to med school with no experiece. Most graduates form college go straight into med school. Also, my program loves to accept nurses. However, there is only one problem. Every single nurse they have accepted has FLUNKED OUT. So their previous preparation didn't show that much difference. Also, thinking as a nurse is one thing; thinking like a practitioner (PA or NP) is totally different. If not, then nurses would be prescribing medication. My point is that, when PA programs accept students, they keep in mind that they are training individuals to think like practitioners. I personally think that NP and PA's are both great. PA schooling is very grueling. We take the SAME CLASSES AS MED SCHOOL STUDENTS.

SWR PA-S

Not all PA students (or even most I would imagine) take the same classes and prerequisites as physicians. There were several paramedics in my class who were applying to PA schools who took the same chemistry and A&P as the pre-nursing students. I would have to wonder about the collective wisdom of the administration at your university if they continue "loving to accept nurses" if every single one flunks out. Apart from the obvious, they also lose the tuition from these students, so something isn't quite right. I agree with you that the experience of most PA students probably is just adequate as most NP students. We've all heard the odd story about lesser qualified individuals such as CMA's and others with little to no experience getting into a PA program or a nursing student who has basically no experience going straight into an NP program. I would imagine that these cases are the exception for both groups.

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The argument of PA's vs NP's has cropped up again. It is counterproductive for professionals or future professionals to argue this silliness. The fact is both professions have contributed a great deal to health care and anectdodal (sp.) evidence about either is just what it sounds like hersay. Finally, if you wish to compare curriculum for NP's and PA's don't ask about it go online to one the various schools and see for yourself. It is significantly different. There I feel better now.

Agreed with the above. PAs and NP are great professions that have there place in todays medical care.

As a RN that is graduating PA school this month (Sweet) most of these post are full of second hand information.

Just for the PA student stating that her program has flunked out all the nurses, this nurse not only graduated but received excellent grades.

tiredfeetED, FNP-S, PA-S ( watch out PANCE, here i come)

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hmm being married to a graduate PA program faculty member, I can say that the majority of the PA programs out there don't take the same classes as med school students. As a matter of fact most of the classes that are required in the credentialing prcess for a PA program don't match the MD curriculum. Now in some places, A&P can be shared. But everything else is different. I was reading in one of the articles in an academic journal that most of the PA programs were'nt affiliated with a med school any more. Or maybe it was new programs, I can't remember.

I'd also like to see the reality of what happened to those nurses, were they flunked out or did they drop out. There is a difference. I can point to about half a dozen PA's who started as nurses and excelled at it. I can also point to a couple of classes were all the students had been paramedics first and half of them flunked out. I don't think it had anything to do with them being paramedics. I think it had to do with the fact the individuals werent' ready for the demands of being a full time student. there is something to be said about going from a part tiem student taking a couple of classes a semester and jumping into a 5 day a week, 8 hours a day graduate progem, were you have to read well over 100 pages a night.

I sit next to a 2nd year med student, so your argument is null and void.

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I ask you one question. How is going to PA school with no experience different from going to med school with no experiece.

SWR PA-S

I think there's a big difference, even if you include NPs into the question. A PA-C/NP training is 2 years. Medical doctoral training is 4 years. In addition, they complete a residency for a minimum of 3 years. And, they hold BA/BS degrees commonly in biology or biochemistry. They also take the MCAT and have a GPA of at least 3.6 in undergrad studies. Not to put MDs on a pedestal, but getting into med school is extremely tough. I'm sure it is beneficial to have prior healthcare experience, but due to the demands of the program it's not very realistic to work 4 years as a paramedic, MA etc get a BA/BS then go to med school. It involves planning and the committment to be school for up to 11 years total (including undergrad). The bottom line is, they get much more training than what an NP/PA-C would get and they get most of their experience in the residencies.

Just so you know, I know about the commitment it takes. I was accepted to med school and turned it down. I would also like to point out the we take several test to get in as well. No one in our program even got looked at if you didn't have a 3.8 GPA. Our class had a 4.0 science GPA. We do just as much work in half of the time. My teacher who is an AUTONOMIC CARDIOVASCULAR PHARMACOLOGIST stated that he gives the exact same test and exact same amount of work. There is only one difference, we do it in half the time. Don't tell me that we don't earn our degrees.

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I think there's a big difference, even if you include NPs into the question. A PA-C/NP training is 2 years. Medical doctoral training is 4 years. In addition, they complete a residency for a minimum of 3 years. And, they hold BA/BS degrees commonly in biology or biochemistry. They also take the MCAT and have a GPA of at least 3.6 in undergrad studies. Not to put MDs on a pedestal, but getting into med school is extremely tough. I'm sure it is beneficial to have prior healthcare experience, but due to the demands of the program it's not very realistic to work 4 years as a paramedic, MA etc get a BA/BS then go to med school. It involves planning and the committment to be school for up to 11 years total (including undergrad). The bottom line is, they get much more training than what an NP/PA-C would get and they get most of their experience in the residencies.

Just so you know, I know about the commitment it takes. I was accepted to med school and turned it down. I would also like to point out the we take several test to get in as well. No one in our program even got looked at if you didn't have a 3.8 GPA. Our class had a 4.0 science GPA. We do just as much work in half of the time. My teacher who is an AUTONOMIC CARDIOVASCULAR PHARMACOLOGIST stated that he gives the exact same test and exact same amount of work. There is only one difference, we do it in half the time. Don't tell me that we don't earn our degrees.

This is the second time you have stated that PAs take the same classes as medical students. While this may be correct for your particular program, overall it is not accurate. A quick perusal of the program director turns up at least 40 programs that are not conducted at medical schools. While many programs have some of their classes with medical students I am unaware of a single program that duplicates all aspects of medical school for PA students.

Medical students in general get additional training in hard sciences than PA students do. They get less clinical training in their first two years than PA students do. The training that they get in their last two years in my limited experience is not of the same quality that PA students get in their clinical year, but the training in residency is superior but in duration and depth.

As far as GPA the average GPA for the 2006 PA class was 3.25. This is significantly less than the average GPA for Medical school (although competitive for Osteopathic and Caribbean schools). What this reflects is the different emphasis placed by PA school on other areas besides GPA and MCATs. The bottom line is that training for physicians is significantly different than training for PAs (even if you sit in some of the same classes). To paraphrase a PA who went on to medical school, PA schools sole focus is to produce well trained clinicians in the requisite time. Medical schools focus is to produce physicians that become clinicians during residency.

BTW all three of the nurses in my class did just fine.

David Carpenter, PA-C

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[QUOTE=SWR PA-S;2533529]I think there's a big difference, even if you include NPs into the question. A PA-C/NP training is 2 years. Medical doctoral training is 4 years. In addition, they complete a residency for a minimum of 3 years. And, they hold BA/BS degrees commonly in biology or biochemistry. They also take the MCAT and have a GPA of at least 3.6 in undergrad studies. Not to put MDs on a pedestal, but getting into med school is extremely tough. I'm sure it is beneficial to have prior healthcare experience, but due to the demands of the program it's not very realistic to work 4 years as a paramedic, MA etc get a BA/BS then go to med school. It involves planning and the committment to be school for up to 11 years total (including undergrad). The bottom line is, they get much more training than what an NP/PA-C would get and they get most of their experience in the residencies.

Just so you know, I know about the commitment it takes. I was accepted to med school and turned it down. I would also like to point out the we take several test to get in as well. No one in our program even got looked at if you didn't have a 3.8 GPA. Our class had a 4.0 science GPA. We do just as much work in half of the time. My teacher who is an AUTONOMIC CARDIOVASCULAR PHARMACOLOGIST stated that he gives the exact same test and exact same amount of work. There is only one difference, we do it in half the time. Don't tell me that we don't earn our degrees.

Sounds like you are getting a great education. No need to be so confrontational. Every school is different. If your program is providing the exact same education as a medical school, but in the half of the time, I have to question why a medical degree isn't granted at the end. You should be proud of your education as a PA. There is no need to constantly compare it to med school. It isn't the same anymore than an RN or RRT education is the same as a P.A.

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Specializes in Critical Care, Emergency, Education, Informatics.
I sit next to a 2nd year med student, so your argument is null and void.

Exactly what class are you sitting next to the 2nd year med student and what geographic area is your program in? You need to be carefull posting generalities with supporting information. If your that proud of the program, let us all know were it is.

Yes there are a few programs affiliated with med schools but the majority of the programs aren't. As to comparing PA and NP education, I've been in rounds at Johns Hopkins with NP students who were getting pimped just as hard as the Hopkins residents and fellows. I can remember as a SICU staff nurse getting pimped as hard as the interns. I was expected to know enough to keep my patients safe from the well meaning interns.

All these arguments aren't realy pertinate to the OP's anyway. The reality is, it's the job that your getting paid for. Whatever you can convince your boss to pay you above the base level is a sign of your negotion skills, not the product of your education. Just speaking from the nurse side of things, a graduate from Emory,Hopkins or whatever program is going to make the same starting wage as the one who graduates from a place like Ft Hays State University in rural KS. When I hire someone, In general I don't look at the school they graduated from other than to get a feel for the clinical sites they had. This goes for both NP's and PA's. As to the salary they were offered. Well the PA that had 10years as a city Paramedic got about $5k more than the new grad NP, and the NP that had 15 years in a high accuity ER before going to NP school, got about $8k more than the new grad PA. ( that amount was the max the market I was workign in could handle) This was rural america, (frontier actually) and both of their starting salary was $58k plus a ton of benifits, like 100% tution reimbursment. To keep that amount in perspective, I bought a 2600 square foot house for a whopping $56k when I moved there. I can' t remember which school either of them graduated from. They both had the same basic acutiy clinical sites. In that same applicant pool I had a FNP new grad that had worked as a Kaiser telephone triage nurse and hadn't touched a real life patient other than her clinical time in years. Needless to say she didn't get the job, I also had a PA new grad that was a unit secratary before going to PA school, She didn't get the job either. One of the best Pediatric PA's I know was a CNA for 1200 hours bfore going to PA school. When hiring I wasn't hiring the school they graduated from, I was hiring the person standing in front of me.

It is frustrating to everyone in all proffesions when there is percieved inequality. Especially if you are the one that is feeling stiffed. There are a lot of factors that play into salary calculations, I always found the best way to handle that was to work towards making sure that I had all the amunition available for support my salary requests. I make sure that people know that I graduated from a prom west coast university for me initial Grad degree,a nd I make sure that people know I supplied ALS coverage for the president of the US. Doesn't matter that I was so far away from him, that no matter what happened I wouldn't be the one to treat him, but I make sure that people know that when I apply for a new job. It does help. Be proactive and show the person who is trying to hire you that you are worth giving that whopping big salary to, that you are going to be worth it, and bring in more revenue to the practice than someone else. Don't worry that PA or NP so and so down the street is making more, just use that as a base to start from in negotiating your own salary.

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Specializes in Education, FP, LNC, Forensics, ED, OB.
All these arguments aren't realy pertinate to the OP's anyway.

Agree.

Let's keep all med school talk out of this thread. Plenty of others for that.;)

Topic: PA's make more $$ than NP's!

Thanks!

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