Partial Birth Abortions--NOT an abortion debate

allnurses Guide · Apr 18, 2007

Since the op's question has been answered then, maybe this thread is done.

steph

rnin02 · Apr 18, 2007

Has the original question be answered? It would be nice if anyone else had more facts to share, in a polite way of course. I posted that quote earlier, and some info I had found, but I still don't fully understand.

justme1972 · Apr 19, 2007

Well, for me, the question was answered, because I always just assumed that a non-viable fetus would die quickly, and I learned today that isn't the case. Several hours isn't quick to me.

I guess my main concern is pain control...that is the real issue that I have. Even the tiniest babies, if they must be let go, should be able to go a humanely as possible.

I just wished that there was a way to make that happen...even for adults that need to be "let go"

allnurses Guide · Apr 19, 2007

I just have a general question, and wonder if someone could educate me...this is a true curiosity question.
When I first heard of this procedure years ago, I really and truly thought it was a medical myth or something practices in a third-world country.
I can think of many truly, medical reasons where a mother cannot continue a pregnancy and it would put her life at risk, but I cannot think of a single reason of why a c-section, artificial labor induction...cannot take place, and why a baby would have to be destroyed while half-way out of the womb...why couldn't the baby be treated as any other preemie and let nature (or God), make the decision?
Can anyone share some light? I have tried to find the reasons behind this (and as of the recent USSC decision, it's now illegal) online and can't find any.

Well, I agree that this just seems odd.

You have to deliver the child feet first . . . how does that happen naturally? Some external version of the baby?

This is mostly done on babies with hydrocephaly, Down's Syndrome, and other anomalies.

You already know what happens after the feet are delivered.

But the truth is that there is no real "health" reason to do this.

This is from the Senate Testimony in 1992.

"Physicians Ad Hoc Coalition for Truth" (PHACT), a group of more than 300 medical specialists state: "Partial-birth abortion is never medically necessary to protect the health of a woman or to protect her future fertility; in fact, the procedure can pose grave dangers to the woman".

In 1992, Dr. Martin Haskell presented his paper on this procedure at a Risk Management Seminar of the National Abortion Federation. He personally claims to have done over 700 himself (Interview with Dr. Martin Haskell, AMA News, 1993), and points out that some 80% are "purely elective." In a personal conversation with Fr. Frank Pavone, Dr. Haskell explained that "elective" does not mean that the woman chooses the procedure because of a medical necessity, but rather chooses it because she wants an abortion. He admitted to Fr. Frank that there does not seem to be any medical reason for this procedure. There are in fact absolutely no obstetrical situations encountered in this country which require a partially delivered human fetus to be destroyed to preserve the life or health of the mother (Dr. Pamela Smith, Senate Hearing Record, p.82: Partial Birth Abortion Ban Medical Testimony).

http://www.priestsforlife.org/partialbirth.html

allnurses Guide · Apr 19, 2007

Well, for me, the question was answered, because I always just assumed that a non-viable fetus would die quickly, and I learned today that isn't the case. Several hours isn't quick to me.
I guess my main concern is pain control...that is the real issue that I have. Even the tiniest babies, if they must be let go, should be able to go a humanely as possible.
I just wished that there was a way to make that happen...even for adults that need to be "let go"

I'm friends with one young couple who chose to give birth to a child with many devastating birth defects and held her as she died. It took a few hours but it was a very meaningful experience for them and they got to say goodbye to their daughter.

I'm not convinced a couple of hours isn't "quick". It seems reasonable to me to let the baby die naturally rather than figure out a way to get the baby feet first, deliver everything except the head and then . . . .

For families who couldn't watch their child die - there are compassionate nurses who could hold that baby and make sure they were not alone.

steph

KellNY, RN · Apr 19, 2007

This procedure is done "often" on babies with anencephaly and/or severe hydrocephaly (I'm not talking about the kind where you can insert a shunt and the baby can grow up to be a normal healthy kid--I'm talking about the kind where the baby's head is HUGE, so distended that the mother is measuring weeks ahead of true gestation). Many times the baby is often dead already, or is expected to die, whether delivered lady partslly or by c/s.

A D&X (since this is a nursing site, it'd be nice if we could use proper medical terminology instead of politically charged terms) is often "necessary" for the mother who does not want to undergo major abdominal surgery, which is what a c/s is. A primary c/s greatly increases chances of needing a c-section with future pregnancies-repeat c/s can lead to an accreta which is life threatening. Any c/s poses higher risk of hemorrhage and subsequent hystorectomy, infection, reaction to anesthetics/suture material, DVT, scarring, etc.

I've never seen a D&X done on a fetus with Downs Syndrome or anything relitively minor like that. (D&E yes, but that is not what the OP was asking about)

For anyone looking for info, this site has a lot http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm

GiantHeart21 · Apr 19, 2007

Ya dutchgirl i totally agree... I think it's crazy that if the baby was delivered a couple inches more then sticking scissors in the back of his head would be murder. I have seen many babies die peacfully in thier mother's arms in NICU. And for the mothers who are worried about abdominal surgery.... UMM hello this is something you need to think about before you get yourself pregnant. As a mom before and after the baby is born, yuor first concern should be BABY not Mother!!!! And one other thought I know that for other abortions that are not D&X I believe it is D&E that the uterus is injected with digoxin to kill baby before delivery.... Not that I agree with this, but why is this not an option it seems more humane for people who must choose this type of abortion??

allnurses Guide · Apr 19, 2007

I think the reason people use "partial birth abortion" instead of the innocuous "D&X" or "D&E" is that neither of those terms represent what actually happens.

Using initials even makes the words sound better.

Dilation and Evacuation . . . Dilation and Extraction

Here is a nurses' testimony during to the Judiciary Committee: warning it is graphic and it answered my question about how they get the baby's legs out first . . .

http://www.priestsforlife.org/testimony/brendatestimony.html

steph

SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN · Apr 19, 2007

Thanks, KellNY, for that link.

allnurses Guide · Apr 19, 2007

Ya dutchgirl i totally agree... I think it's crazy that if the baby was delivered a couple inches more then sticking scissors in the back of his head would be murder. I have seen many babies die peacfully in thier mother's arms in NICU. And for the mothers who are worried about abdominal surgery.... UMM hello this is something you need to think about before you get yourself pregnant. As a mom before and after the baby is born, yuor first concern should be BABY not Mother!!!! And one other thought I know that for other abortions that are not D&X I believe it is D&E that the uterus is injected with digoxin to kill baby before delivery.... Not that I agree with this, but why is this not an option it seems more humane for people who must choose this type of abortion??

I work in OB and parents are given their dying child all the time - nurses make memory boxes for them. Snippets of hair, photo, etc.

As to having a cesarean . . . any read of the trend "Too Posh To Push" . . . . women opt for cesarean for lesser reasons . . like no stretch marks.

I've had 3 lady partsl deliveries and one cesarean and it was not a big deal. It happens every day.

D&E is still gruesome . . . I won't describe it.

steph

allnurses Guide · Apr 19, 2007

Thanks, KellNY, for that link.

I looked at it too - thanks.

steph

norcalRNstudent · Apr 19, 2007

While I'm sure we all agree that this is an awful procedure (regardless of your thoughts as to whether it should be legal or not), I'm pretty sure that info from a site like "priestsforlife" that keeps being referenced is not the most MEDICALLY unbiased. Regardless of ones beliefs, I find it problematic when healthcare is legislated by a bunch of stuffy old men who a) are not doctors, and b) will never be pregnant. Please. Didn't we have enough when that senator medically "diagnosed" Teri Shiavo from a video, and determined that she was not in a vegatative state? As I said, REGARDLESS of your political postition, wouldn't you rather have these decisions made by medical professionals?