This post is not intended to knock paramedics because I know they do an important job, but I was just wondering if any of you have experienced this.
I work in ICU/CCU and the facility is going through some remodelling of the units so they have shut down a part of it to bring in the new equipment and stuff. Since the units are now functioning at about half their usual capacity they have been floating us out to tele and to the ER. I had never worked as an ER nurse before and I've never had much opportunity to work alongside paramedics so the nurse/paramedic relationship is all new to me. I've noticed since day one that the RNs and the paramedics in this ER hate one another but tolerate one another only because they have to, and they use every opportunity to make verbal snipes at one another.
The ER RNs say the paramedics who come through there do not respect them because they consider RNs to be patient aides. My preceptor there told me that the 'us against them' culture has existed for a long time and that nurses have been forced to stand up for themselves after taking many years of abuse from both the physicians and the paramedics. I'm pretty new in the ER and I've already heard many of the jokes and insinuations about how stupid nurses are, but I decided against getting involved in it. The nurse manager is the quiet type who lets things slide and does nothing to back up her nurses so the situation goes on and on.
Recently, I went to renew my ACLS certification and all of the instructors were paramedics. Just from listening to their derogatory jokes about nurses and patient care in emergency situations made me wonder if this is something that happens everywhere. Some of these guys really do believe that they know it all, and it is a joke to them that we call ourselves professionals. One of them even had the stones to ask if there were any physicians in the class because they've had "problems" in the past with physicians who questioned some of the things they say in their presentations. They all laughed about that because they thought it was funny for an MD to question their judgment about how to best stabilize a crashing patient in a specific scenario. I didn't think there was anything funny about that because no matter how experienced you are or how much you think you know, you can always learn something from another person, right? Apparently, not these guys.
The jokes were bad enough during the class that I had to say something to get them to stop, but even more alarming was the fact that so many nurses in the class were also laughing at these jokes that were intended to make us look foolish and incompetent. I wasn't going to say anything because I just wanted to get my certificate and get the heck out of there, but they crossed the line with the jokes when one of them suggested to another that only effeminate or gay men are nurses but that you had to be rough and tough to be one of them. Of course, I had to stop them right there, not just because I am not gay or because I am a man but because I just couldn't believe that these unprofessional louts were actually teaching an ACLS class.
I just don't get what's up with all this arrogance. I thought we were supposed to be working together as a team?
Part of their culture?? Geezus. If by that statement you mean that most of us are like that then you're wayyy off the mark and you typify the type of person who has zero clue exactly what that "culture" really is.
Arrogance ins't confined to any race, creed or profession. I have run across arrogant
Dr's, paramedics, emt's, firefighters, grocery clerks, wait staff, nurses............the list goes on. Let it slide when it doesn't matter (pride) speak up when it does (pt. safety, professionalism). Just because you pass the profeciency test doesn't mean you pass the personality test! Most of us know we work together, the rest aren't paying attention and sometimes need a smiley reminder. Gross generalizations are grossly inaccurate. There is a place for all of us. I like the saying, "You don't have to blow out my candle to make yours burn brighter" We are bigger than this kind of thing! ;)
I think the general trend here shows that nurses who frequently work in close contact with EMS providers (ED, CCT, flight, PHRN) seem to have little problem with them. Those that have infrequent contact, like the original poster who was floated to the ED and had some problems in ACLS, tend to have more.
My experience is that this is pretty typical. The EMS world with its distinct culture, language and mores, is vastly different than that of nursing. Some of that stuff is actually functional (it takes a pinch of arrogance to walk into some of the situations with which they are confronted) and some of it is clearly dysfunctional (think time and place). When the two worlds rub up against one another, either in the ED, a LTC facility, or wherever, there is likely to be a bit of uncomfortable friction.
I think the problem is with the place. I have worked in several different jobs in my nursing career. I notice that bad behaviour tends to breed bad behavior. If everyone is doing it, it must be ok. The competant nurse without an ego or an attitude doesn't do well in an environment of cocky hard ass people trying to prove something. I see this often and not with paramedics, but my own soul sisters and brothers... nurses. I have worked in places where i know that one of the most imcompetant uncaring nurses i have ever worked with ( 3 depositions in 3 years to prove it), could walk into and get more respect than i, just because of her cocky attitude. And I am a great nurse--knowing that i am doing my job well is always my priority when i'm at work. I never try to sell myself, never try to make myself look good by making others look bad, never toot my own horn, always try to help if i see others with tough assignments--and I am always on top of things, catch alot of missed crap, but i don't bost about it. When you are new to a place and there is a core group with an attitude, not sharing that attitude can appear weak. Many times the people without anything to prove become targets. In some places the TRUE attributes tend to shine for themselves and lead by example, but there will always be that place of rotten apples where one is never given the chance to prove themselves. Its a shame.
Wow... you are not shining by your comments here. You have done nothing here except to prove the original poster's point. I am truly shocked and appalled.
There are two discussions here, one about EMT using the classroom to bash nurses, Original Post and how we behave to one another in the worksite. Frequently, teaching goes to the ego, and I've heard things in a classroom setting that can only be described as acute pomposity. Something about standing in front of a group brings out the worst in some.
If the group being put down was a racial or ethnic group, everybody would understand that it is a . Generalizations, including comments about all male nurses being gay, or stupid, or all nurses being incompetent say more about the speaker than the subject. AHA does need to hear about them, as they are :offtopic: and need to teach what they are being paid to teach. If I'm the payee, I have no problem saying so at the time, and sharing my opinion to their boss.
We're not going to nursing school because of the money...we're going to nursing school because it affords us more opportunity..and more money
Same difference.
Part of their culture?? Geezus. If by that statement you mean that most of us are like that then you're wayyy off the mark and you typify the type of person who has zero clue exactly what that "culture" really is.
Ok, I see your point here. Perhaps I made too broad of a generalization. I'm just basing my observations on what I've seen at my nursing school.
We had to organize a health fair with the paramedic students. For them, everything was about perceived hierarchy and who was "on top". They had to have the best position for tables, better displays, etc. They fought tooth and nail over everything and were quite rude to us when there really wasn't any need to do so.
For one thing, we didn't care what tables or displays we had. It was just a little school health fair for crying out loud but, to them, every little thing was a competition. For us nursing students, it was just a project for public education.
My display was on respiratory so we had the incentive spirometers, etc. where people could test their breathing capacity, etc. At first the paramedics wanted us to "compete" with them on the spirometer, but we weren't interested. So then they started to compete with each other.
Before I knew it, I had 10 paramedics surrounding the table, all competing on who could reach the highest mark. The paramedic instructor was also doing this so he could prove that he could beat his students.
At a certain point I had to ask them to quit because none of the members of the public who were actually attending the fair could see, much less use the display. They gave me hard time because they were hell bent on improving their previous "scores," especially if they had previously "lost" to their classmates. It became this macho-ego thing where they had to outdo each other no matter what.
This is what I meant by paramedic "culture" which apparently starts in school. I've never seen anything like it. There is some competition in nursing school, but nothing like what I saw with paramedics. For one thing, I've never seen nursing instructors encourage competition or actually compete with students like this paramedic instructor did.
This is why I think there are differences between nursing and paramedic cultures. The paramedics tended to view things in terms of hierarchy, even when there was none. Consequently, they were constantly trying to outdo everybody else, no matter what the circumstances.
I worked in the e/r for a few months & didn't notice any problems between the paramedics and the nurses. If the paramedics were unhappy, it might of been because they felt they were not being utilized to their full potential by the e/r. However, once a patient is stable, they need medical care by a doctor & the only person trained and able to carry out these orders are the nurses. When I attended ACLS class, the paramedics did make it known that they didn't need a doctor's order like the nurses. Who cares, I don't see nurses in paramedic school but I see paramedics in nursing school.
I'm a middle aged woman in the midst of a career change from clinical social work to nursing. To see if I'd even like the field, I got my CNA and EMT-B along with the pre-reqs (I call it being thorough; my husband would laugh and say it's more like compulsive!
From the little I've seen so far, this field is like any other - there are the jerks and the joys. It was hard for me at the beginning of EMT class because I did not have the brute strength of my classmates (including a young and tough woman who did all kinds of extreme sports and could kick ass with the best...) A couple of the medics on my ride-alongs were rude and condescending to everyone (students, nurses, EMT basics, etc.), but the majority were helpful and encouraging.
Even though I never plan on being on an ambulance crew (bad hours for a carpool mom!), I have gained a whole new level of respect for the work they do AND I tell everyone I know how little they make... there needs to be much more awareness around this! When we pay more for delivering pizzas than we do for delivering pre-hospital care, there's something wrong.
I have gotten some flak from EMS people about going into nursing school, but I take it as playful banter and just give them a hard time right back :smiley_ab
Look, bombing ACLS is no big deal. I'm sure they let you retest. Having never been faced with the scenario, I can't really say.
This is not about the OP. The OP never bombed ACLS. In fact, the OP has renewed ACLS a few times.
Those that have infrequent contact, like the original poster who was floated to the ED and had some problems in ACLS, tend to have more.
This is not about the OP. The OP never had any problems with ACLS, and the OP doesn't "tend" to have more problems with anyone or any particular group of people.
Please stop trying to turn this into something personal against the OP. The 'problem' had nothing whatsoever to do with the ACLS course material, it is about a group of ACLS instructors who repeatedly acted inappropriately and unprofessionally during ACLS class time. ACLS instruction isn't cheap, and these guys do not teach the class for free. Sorry if something the OP said hit a nerve, but I'm quite certain the AHA would not approve of such behavior either.
Medics?? I love my medics....and have learned a lot from them over the years. Working in the ED isn't a love-fest....neither is working in ICU. We have STRONG personalities....that is one of the reasons we are good at our jobs.
ACLS can be the ninth circle of hell....Does anyone besides me remember THOSE days.....3 days of absolute agony...instructors trying their best to trip you up?? Geeeee....all of your peripheral lines just blew....what'cha gonna do now....hmmmm. Nope no drugs down that tube...it just got dislodged....oh....CENTRAL LINE...describe your landmarks and the insertion techniques....AHHHHHHHH:uhoh3: Boy do I love the kinder, gentler ACLS!!
To the OP....some people aren't meant to teach....they don't do it well. Personalities can sometimes get in the way. Were they good instructors...nope. Would I report their inappropriate and unprofessional behavior....most likely.
You will run into all sorts of co-workers in any job....the ones that do nothing and make a three-toed sloth look industrious. Obnoxious docs that you would like to :trout: . I once worked with a TNS that hid EVERY time a trama rolled through the door! Don't let them get you down!!
;)
. Generalizations, including comments about all male nurses being gay, or stupid, or all nurses being incompetent say more about the speaker than the subject. AHA does need to hear about them, as they are :offtopic: and need to teach what they are being paid to teach. If I'm the payee, I have no problem saying so at the time, and sharing my opinion to their boss.
Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN
12,126 Posts
Ain't that the truth.