This post is not intended to knock paramedics because I know they do an important job, but I was just wondering if any of you have experienced this.
I work in ICU/CCU and the facility is going through some remodelling of the units so they have shut down a part of it to bring in the new equipment and stuff. Since the units are now functioning at about half their usual capacity they have been floating us out to tele and to the ER. I had never worked as an ER nurse before and I've never had much opportunity to work alongside paramedics so the nurse/paramedic relationship is all new to me. I've noticed since day one that the RNs and the paramedics in this ER hate one another but tolerate one another only because they have to, and they use every opportunity to make verbal snipes at one another.
The ER RNs say the paramedics who come through there do not respect them because they consider RNs to be patient aides. My preceptor there told me that the 'us against them' culture has existed for a long time and that nurses have been forced to stand up for themselves after taking many years of abuse from both the physicians and the paramedics. I'm pretty new in the ER and I've already heard many of the jokes and insinuations about how stupid nurses are, but I decided against getting involved in it. The nurse manager is the quiet type who lets things slide and does nothing to back up her nurses so the situation goes on and on.
Recently, I went to renew my ACLS certification and all of the instructors were paramedics. Just from listening to their derogatory jokes about nurses and patient care in emergency situations made me wonder if this is something that happens everywhere. Some of these guys really do believe that they know it all, and it is a joke to them that we call ourselves professionals. One of them even had the stones to ask if there were any physicians in the class because they've had "problems" in the past with physicians who questioned some of the things they say in their presentations. They all laughed about that because they thought it was funny for an MD to question their judgment about how to best stabilize a crashing patient in a specific scenario. I didn't think there was anything funny about that because no matter how experienced you are or how much you think you know, you can always learn something from another person, right? Apparently, not these guys.
The jokes were bad enough during the class that I had to say something to get them to stop, but even more alarming was the fact that so many nurses in the class were also laughing at these jokes that were intended to make us look foolish and incompetent. I wasn't going to say anything because I just wanted to get my certificate and get the heck out of there, but they crossed the line with the jokes when one of them suggested to another that only effeminate or gay men are nurses but that you had to be rough and tough to be one of them. Of course, I had to stop them right there, not just because I am not gay or because I am a man but because I just couldn't believe that these unprofessional louts were actually teaching an ACLS class.
I just don't get what's up with all this arrogance. I thought we were supposed to be working together as a team?
People who have to put you down to elevate themselves are obviously attempting to compensate for something.
Obviously.
You started this whine-in. What's your real motivation?
It seems to me we have two basic types of responses here.
On one hand we have the basic nurse self-lovefest. You guys know what I mean: "Yay, nurses are best . . . . We're sooooo profesional - compared to those apes. . . . (insert argument equating skills required in varied practice areas) . . . We're better because they make less money and don't know where to shop.
On the other, we have folks who seem to get along with paramedics pretty well. The common theme among the second group seems to be a greater willingness to accept EMS providers as equals.
Frankly, I'd rather bend an arm with the second group, but I'm not too picky about who I'll drink with.
:yeahthat: As a Paramedic/R.N....OR...R.N./Paramedic, most of the 'medics are at least a little insecure in the area of "people 101" except on the scene of an emergency. There is where a 'medic(a good one) shines. He/she focus' on the patient, making sure of the scene safety, etc. When we get to the E.R., suddenly, they are not in "control"...Insecurity... The same in a classroom. They feel intimidation, so, the best defense is a good offense. I speak from 25+ years of experience as a 'medic and a little over 2 as an R.N. Are all 'medics this way????????? NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just a few bad apples. Let the flames begin
I don't consider people's expression of their opinions as a "whine-in". What's my motivation? To hear other people's opinions about what I consider to be a lack of professionalism on the part of some paramedics and some nurses, too. Throwing a red herring into the mix does not negate the fact that this is a legitimate issue because I've seen it affect the quality of care that some patients receive and also the quality of the education that some ACLS students, myself included, receive. I never at any point in my post suggested that paramedics are my equal or that I am better than them in any way. We are not equals. We are two different groups of professionals and we do different things but we are supposed to work together to achieve two objectives---to preserve lives and to keep our patients safe.
Contrary to what you seem to be suggesting, my post does not bash EMS workers. If you read it again you will see that my real motivation was to question why some of us can't work amicably as a team without the put-downs and the "I know more than you" mentality.
You started this whine-in. What's your real motivation?
Something I'm realizing as I am a nursing student is that the thought processes between nursing and EMS are really quite different. EMS centers on what needs to be done here and now to stabilize the patient, nursing seems to also focus more on the implications down the road. The bottom line should be each provider doing what is best for the patient.
I have been on both sides of the fence, first as a medic, now as an RN. I have worked with medics that thought they were God's gift to EMS, and one of them thought he was God's gift to women, but those are rare. I have also worked with nurses that thought they were God's gift to nursing as well as Doctors who....you get the picture. I think there are arrogant so and so's in every profession. I haven't ever ran into instructors like the OP talked about though. In the ER where I used to work, everyone got along pretty good. I was probably more sympathetic toward medics that came in without having done something if I knew the reason it didn't get done was because I knew what emergency scenes can be like. On the other hand, I probably was little more critical of them if they didn't do something they should have because, again, I knew what emergency scenes can be like, and what they should have been able to accomplish. I guess it takes all kinds, and we all need a group hug!!!!
:yeahthat: As a Paramedic/R.N....OR...R.N./Paramedic, most of the 'medics are at least a little insecure in the area of "people 101" except on the scene of an emergency. There is where a 'medic(a good one) shines. He/she focus' on the patient, making sure of the scene safety, etc.
I think this statement applies to most EMS providers, not just medics. My friends and co-workers have mentioned to me on more than one occasion that I am a totally different person in an emergency scene- I'm much more assertive, I prioritize tasks quickly and effectively, and I'm much calmer than ususal. Yet, these same characterics that are my strengths in an emergency are some of the same ones I struggle to improve on in everyday life.
Wow... you are not shining by your comments here. You have done nothing here except to prove the original poster's point. I am truly shocked and appalled.
How is an EMT feeling superior to the RN any different from the RN who claims superiority over the physician because "they don't know or care about the patient as much as nurses"?
Seems like sibling rivalry within the workplace. Everyone trying to get the most attention and feel like their contributions are not only worthy, but even more worthy than anyone elses contribution.
Specializes in Peds Cardiology,Peds Neuro,Pedi ER,PICU, IV Jedi.
I think this statement applies to most EMS providers, not just medics. My friends and co-workers have mentioned to me on more than one occasion that I am a totally different person in an emergency scene- I'm much more assertive, I prioritize tasks quickly and effectively, and I'm much calmer than ususal. Yet, these same characterics that are my strengths in an emergency are some of the same ones I struggle to improve on in everyday life.
Oh, my God I found my sister!!!! We MUST be related...I suffer from the same thing!!
Specializes in Peds Cardiology,Peds Neuro,Pedi ER,PICU, IV Jedi.
Ouch... now there's a post designed to divide if ever I read one. Oh, we're taking it all the way to the bank...woohoo. Just do us all a favor and don't get into an accident on the way there, otherwise we may have to work on you.
Seriously...and the part about it starting in school?? No, for many medics it's a defense mechanism to help us deal with the insecurity we feel...perhaps because we were truly scared shitless that the last patient wasn't going to make it...I've felt that way a fewww times to be sure.
We're not going to nursing school because of the money...we're going to nursing school because it affords us more opportunity..and more money
Perhaps the medics you describe need a little sensitivity training. I know quite a few nurses who could use it too. See, in the field - we are the eyes,ears and hands of the physician. In the hospital, we're just a "tech", and don't think some nurses won't put themselves on their little pedestal by exploiting that fact.
And it's truly not about being better than anyone, just confident in your abilities.
Part of their culture?? Geezus. If by that statement you mean that most of us are like that then you're wayyy off the mark and you typify the type of person who has zero clue exactly what that "culture" really is.
Yeah, and there's a reason why they're insecure.
RN's make $57K on average nationwide. Paramedics make $28K. This is why so many paramedics are going to nursing school.
So ... they can slam nurses all they want, we're taking it to the bank.
I too have met quite a few arrogant, rude paramedics. I think it starts in school. There's this highly competitive, machismo attitude that they're better than everybody else, which seems to be part of their culture.
Just a few bad apples. Let the flames begin
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now there's a post designed to divide if ever I read one. Oh, we're taking it all the way to the bank...woohoo. Just do us all a favor and don't get into an accident on the way there, otherwise we may have to work on you.
pfitz1079
69 Posts
Obviously.
You started this whine-in. What's your real motivation?
It seems to me we have two basic types of responses here.
On one hand we have the basic nurse self-lovefest. You guys know what I mean: "Yay, nurses are best . . . . We're sooooo profesional - compared to those apes. . . . (insert argument equating skills required in varied practice areas) . . . We're better because they make less money and don't know where to shop.
On the other, we have folks who seem to get along with paramedics pretty well. The common theme among the second group seems to be a greater willingness to accept EMS providers as equals.
Frankly, I'd rather bend an arm with the second group, but I'm not too picky about who I'll drink with.
Pete Fitzpatrick
RN, CFRN, EMT-P
Writing from the Ninth Circle